PLM Long Tube Header

[Cole]

Originally Posted by Shady195

It's a replica, a knock off. They are not claiming to be nameless. They are not claiming an original design.

I'm just a consumer who saw a header somewhere for a good price.

Does anyone have a nameless header and this one to compare? to Measure?

Look at Borla and Open Flash..

They are damn near the same design.. are you gonna Knock either of these companies for stealing?

Just playing devils advocate here

You make too logical of a point. Those who are 100% against knock-offs will never be swayed. I see no problem with it, really. So long as you aren't claiming it to be an original when you buy the knock-off.

Hell, I just bought "Rocket Bunny Style Front Lip and Side Skirts". Does that make me a shitty person for spending 500 dollars on a lip and skirts that are gunna get banged the fuck up, versus spending around 1500 (with USD to CAD conversion, shipping and taxes) on a lip and skirts that are gunna get banged the fuck up? No, I don't think so. I have a hard time justifying paying 3 times the price for what is essentially a "wear" item (similar to brakes) given my low ride height. Am I going to claim it's a real Rocket Bunny lip and skirts? Hell no, if people ask, I will most certainly say, "No, it's a knock off".

Do I care that people are going to talk shit to me about it? Fuck no. It's my money, and I will do with it what I see fit.

[burdickjp]

Originally Posted by Shady195

It's a replica, a knock off. They are not claiming to be nameless. They are not claiming an original design.

I'm just a consumer who saw a header somewhere for a good price.

Does anyone have a nameless header and this one to compare? to Measure?

Look at Borla and Open Flash..

They are damn near the same design.. are you gonna Knock either of these companies for stealing?

Just playing devils advocate here

There are several philosophical things wrong with buying knock-offs. Immanuel Kant had an interesting method of determining if something were wrong. It is called the universalisability test (don't try saying that. It's embarassing). It's basically asking what the world would look like if everyone, presented with a similar situation, behaved similarly.

If everyone were to only buy knock-off products, what would happen?

Originally Posted by Cole

It's my money, and I will do with it what I see fit.

That's your prerogative as a consumer.
Consider your dollar like a vote. You can vote for the business you want to support by spending your money there. Spend your money on a business doing R&D and you'll get continued R&D. Spend your money on a business stealing R&D and you're supporting stealing.

[tennisfreak]

Originally Posted by NotEric6

I'm willing to bet the material costs for nameless' header is much more then what a lot of you are thinking. To buy genuine United States based material, and parts, is not cheap. Tack on a welder who doesn't get paid $5 a day, it's pretty easy to see we're dealing with a U.S. built product vs. something overseas in my opinion.

I'm looking at doing a one off custom header just to try my shot at one and because I enjoy doing this type of thing. Cost of materials alone, without welding or my engineering time, will be around $700. Yes this is a one off but still.

Doubtful.

Just bought and installed, this past Saturday, a set of stainless steel long tube headers for my buddies Camaro 1LE.
They were fabricated and made at the local performance shop where we live.
Quality was outstanding and the cost was just under $500. This was for headers not header since the Camaro needs 2 (one for each bank of cylinders).

Unless Nameless is using some kind of adamantium and/or unicorn jizz I don't buy the parts costing anywhere close to $700.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by bur****jp

That's your prerogative as a consumer.
Consider your dollar like a vote. You can vote for the business you want to support by spending your money there. Spend your money on a business doing R&D and you'll get continued R&D. Spend your money on a business stealing R&D and you're supporting stealing.

And your point is? As already stated, those who buy knock-offs wouldn't buy the real thing anyways. I already also said I have a hard time spending 1500 on something that's going to get smashed up, so I opted for the cheaper option. Especially on a part, such as a lip/side skirts and to a lesser extent, rear diffusers which offer little to no aerodynamic gains, please tell me what R&D goes into those, apart from a mock up on a computer. At the end of the day, people such as yourself who sit atop your high horse come off as the jackasses, not the people buying knock-offs.

Somewhat on topic, just so you know I did spend the money on a Nameless axle back. I support quality on parts that matter and on things that I expect should last a while. Wear and tear items, what does it really matter?

[Cole]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

Doubtful.

Just bought and installed, this past Saturday, a set of stainless steel long tube headers for my buddies Camaro 1LE.
They were fabricated and made at the local performance shop where we live.
Quality was outstanding and the cost was just under $500. This was for headers not header since the Camaro needs 2 (one for each bank of cylinders).

Unless Nameless is using some kind of adamantium and/or unicorn jizz I don't buy the parts costing anywhere close to $700.

I get this point, but was there R&D on the headers your buddy had built? That adds to the final dollar amount, but at the same time, the more units you move, theoretically the more it should come down in price. I don't think nameless is entirely justified in what they ask for their headers, and my axleback certainly shouldn't have cost near what it did (Right around 760 with shipping)

[burdickjp]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

Doubtful.

Just bought and installed, this past Saturday, a set of stainless steel long tube headers for my buddies Camaro 1LE.
They were fabricated and made at the local performance shop where we live.
Quality was outstanding and the cost was just under $500. This was for headers not header since the Camaro needs 2 (one for each bank of cylinders).

Unless Nameless is using some kind of adamantium and/or unicorn jizz I don't buy the parts costing anywhere close to $700.

I'm going to pistol-whip the next guy who compares to some ancient american V8. You're dealing with a completely different market.
Was that a pair of 4-1 manifolds? So 2 merges? If we want a 4-2-1 manifold it takes 3 merges. We're having to snake around quite a few things, and bends cost money.
We're also looking at ordering material for a single manifold, rather than a bunch of material for a bunch of manifolds.

[tennisfreak]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Forfucksakes...

Really? Adding to forum quality by reviewing knockoffs?

Compared to the pages and pages Nameless and others like JDL and PTuning wrote that give a candid view on what goes on behind the scenes of parts development? Insight into manufacturing process, material sourcing, difficulties having to hire highly skilled tig welders to meet demand, frustration of having prototypes not meet expectations and be scrapped, honest dyno runs and comparos, etc...

But hey, this guy that's going to review a copy of one of those parts and maybe not even dyno it is a pillar of sainthood in the community?

Really?

And since you can't seem to understand the Rolex reference I'll try to spell it out real simple like for you. It isn't owning one that makes people better (I don't, few do). It's not being a fake-wearing douchebag that makes people better.

LOL

90+% of gains when swapping out headers is due to the removal of the catalytic converter.
Why? Because it is about freeing up exhaust flow.
Sure another 10% could possibly be had by the absolute best pipe design but in the end on this tiny little engine its not worth more than a few WHP.

Headers are f_cking pipes underneath your car. After a few 1000 miles even the most expensive headers are not gonna look showroom quality.

Get off the kool-aid its killing your brain cells.

[tennisfreak]

Originally Posted by bur****jp

I'm going to pistol-whip the next guy who compares to some ancient american V8. You're dealing with a completely different market.
Was that a pair of 4-1 manifolds? So 2 merges? If we want a 4-2-1 manifold it takes 3 merges. We're having to snake around quite a few things, and bends cost money.
We're also looking at ordering material for a single manifold, rather than a bunch of material for a bunch of manifolds.

LOL. Different market? Sure
But materials are materials bud.
1 header is ultimately less material than 2 headers and my post was specifically referring to MATERIAL cost.

Also these headers are not some mass produced item available on a website.
I clearly stated they were fabricated by the local performance shop in our area. They make them to order, just like Nameless.

[burdickjp]

Originally Posted by Cole

At the end of the day, people such as yourself who sit atop your high horse come off as the jackasses, not the people buying knock-offs.

I'm not trying to sit on a high-horse, but please, if you're going to argue against my point, please actually argue against my point. What would happen if EVERYONE did the same?

I'll actually say that what you're doing might work. Everyone buying inexpensive parts when they're expecting to destroy them might not destroy the market.

[raven1231]

dear god! If you like the damn thing great then buy it, and if not don't.

[Jyn]

@tennisfreak what industry or type of work do you do for a living? Curious.

[burdickjp]

Originally Posted by raven1231

dear god! If you like the damn thing great then buy it, and if not don't.

If you want something, steal it. If not, don't.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by bur****jp

I'm not trying to sit on a high-horse, but please, if you're going to argue against my point, please actually argue against my point. What would happen if EVERYONE did the same?

I'll actually say that what you're doing might work. Everyone buying inexpensive parts when they're expecting to destroy them might not destroy the market.

There will always be people with the money to buy parts like the Nameless header who will buy them vs. a knock-off. That's the point. For an example, let's use wheels, since for every legit, original design, there's at least 2 or 3 replicas. I wanted to buy a set of Work Emotion CR Kai's, but they weren't in the budget (around 1500 USD before tax, USD to CAD conversion and shipping). I started to look into replica wheels, Rota makes a wheel called the Torque. While not an exact copy, pretty damn close and it gets the same basic look. They came in around 700 canadian before tax and shipping. Those were in the budget, but I decided against them in the end. If I could have afforded the Work's, would I have bought them? Definitely, beyond any doubt. I was close to buying the Rota's, but decided on a set of XXR 527's instead, again because for a little bit more money, I felt like I got a quality wheel. There are tons of people in my shoes, who want to buy a certain set of wheels. Then that group can be split up into two. Those who can afford them and buy them, those who can't afford them, and get the knock-off.

Once again, I see no problem with buying the knock-off as long as you aren't claiming it's the real deal. Saying everyone will buy the knock-off is very unrealistic in the real world. I get the point you're trying to make, but again, an unrealistic thing to happen. For someone like myself, who just wants to make their car look nice, without breaking the bank, there are 2 roads to go down. One, is buy original (or as original as possible) parts that aren't expensive. The second, buy knock-offs because you like the style, but can't afford the real thing. And like I mentioned earlier, all the parts on my car that I want to last, i.e. header (OpenFlash header), wheels (XXR 527's), tires (Hankook Ventus V2's), exhaust (Nameless axle back) I've put the money in on. Things I didn't care so much about, i.e. roof spoiler (HIC), spoiler (AB-Flug replica, because fuck paying 1200 dollars for a duck bill spoiler), lip kit (Rocket Bunny knock off, because again, fuck paying 1500 for something that I'm going to scraping against the road with) I felt I could cheap out on, because at the end of the day, I don't care if the cosmetic things break, in fact, I bought the front lip as cheap insurance against scraping my actual bumper cover.

TL;DR: People who buy knock-offs generally aren't the people who would buy the name brand thing.

EDIT: Oddly enough, I work in an industry that's based upon a lot of proprietary designs, and a lot of companies knock off what the company I work for does, however, in what I do, the knock offs do not perform as well, and it's easy to see the results. For this application, a couple of horse power is nothing compared to oil and gas pipelines being inadequately protected and rusting away cause product to leak everywhere.

[Andrew025]

Originally Posted by bur****jp

If you want something, steal it. If not, don't.

It's not stealing if you aren't taking away a physical copy from Nameless