PLM Long Tube Header

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by zooki

Ya know, this is the part I've never really understood about this car. Honestly, it's a cheap little sports car, but people seem to think its a priceless work of rolling art. Intakes which are little more than a cone filter on the end of a piece of muffler pipe for $300? And people arguing endlessly about 2-3 HP difference @7000 RPM? Please.
I wish some body made a mild steel header for it for about $200. I'd be all over that. It would probably last longer than the vast majority of us will keep these cars. I had a set of regular mild steel headers on my '93 Mustang and I sold the car with 193,000 miles on it and they were fine. A little surface rust, but that's it. Anyway, I guess I come from a gearhead background where the results are more important than the "fashion show". Not to say there aren't quality products out there, but a lot of them are way overpriced because they appeal to the "keeping up with the Jones'" mentality I seem to see more of in the import crowd than the gear head crowd. That's just my personal observation, of course. Anyway, flame away if you'd like. It's just the way I see things from being in the car culture for 30+ years now.

THIS 100%

I have had mild steel headers on my '75 celica for 8yrs without anything more than a little surface rust and that only appeared when I stopped daily driving the car. I would happily take any of the better header designs in mild steel if they were offered. With the Aussie doller nose diving at the moment the cost of quality American stainless headers has become too much for me to even consider

[Decay107]

Whatever, I hope the cheap china parts work out for the OP.

...wait that's not right, I actually hope the welds give in a few hundred miles. In a design like this where there is a crap ton of pipe length to flex and stress with heat cycles, weld quality and materials are critical. Also when cracks do occur (probably at various merge collectors) there is a good chance of the hole blowing hot exhaust right onto the crank pulley.

Edit: Flew off the handle here a little bit, internet rage meant to be directed at cross not the OP.

[burdickjp]

I'm going to put another vote toward wanting a quality mild steel manifold. If it isn't 321, it isn't worth being stainless (Carrol Smith even says this). Even then I'd opt for a good thermal barrier, so it being mild isn't a bad thing.

BUT expecting quality manifolds to be under $1k is like asking for prime rib at burger joint prices. It just can't happen. The kind of people who are capable of designing a quality manifold have education and experience under their belt to warrant the money they charge for their time. They're a different cut of meat entirely.

[raven1231]

Yeah me too I hope the header catches fire and burns the car down visconti style! Gotta hate you for buying what looks to be a quality replica. Why I give a shit what you do with your money is beyond me though.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Decay107

Whatever, I hope the cheap china parts work out for the OP.

...wait that's not right, I actually hope the welds give in a few hundred miles. In a design like this where there is a crap ton of pipe length to flex and stress with heat cycles, weld quality and materials are critical. Also when cracks do occur (probably at various merge collectors) there is a good chance of the hole blowing hot exhaust right onto the crank pulley.

You do realize the OP didn't buy one right?

Nice to see people wish harm and destruction to others class acts there.

[interna]

I probably will end up purchasing this. unfortunately our dollar isnt the strongest so a nameless header is quite expensive as it is. for the price its obviously using a proven design. sucks how it happens, however they are in the market now aswell.

[Trefoil]

Originally Posted by Dimman

It's funny because Randy's work was a rare example of the Chinese knock offs being superior in material quality as well as workmanship. But even that doesn't make it right.

Supporting these assholes diminishes innovative products in the community by removing incentive to bust your balls and take risks.

Despite mild steel and ugly welds Randy invested in an idea that wasn't being done. It cost him (well his dad) money. It required following through and testing and idea.

Nameless was one company that took an approach of not simply 'it fits and it makes gains', but experimented with tuning the power band through runner lengths, rather than bloating their dyno sheets with 'E85 + header' numbers.

These Private Label shitheads were more than capable of jigging up the stock manifold, making it out of tubes, a nice merge collector and no cat. It would've probably made power. And been like every other $500 header where they would compete against other bottom feeders. So why the fuck did they copy Nameless? Because of the knowledge and testing they cane up with. That's the bullshit part. Making a header that outperforms stock is no big deal, but they felt the need to rip off one that had a specific power band and fitment that they couldn't do on their own.

The problem that arises is that why the fuck would Nameless work on anything new if shitheads 'respect' them but buy from a straight up competing knock off? There is room for improvement in all current header designs. Termination boxes, long primary short secondary tri-y, acoustic branches, tapered cross sections, headers that are more specifically application tuned, synching exhaust acoustics to intake manifold runner designs...

But these require experiments and testing and prototypes and time... All of which takes time. These aren't your daddy's turbo exhausts.

Without being able to gain from that, no one will do it. We'll end up with a homogeneous selection of identical function designs differentiated only by price, weld quality and material. With buyers focusing on price, they drive the market to commodity priced shit or retardedly expensive one-offs.



TLR,

Fuck knock offs.


(This is a general rant, Poodles. Not really all directed at you.)

No offense and I don't want to pick at your post too much, but PTuning did make their header "out of tubes, a nice merge collector and no cat." It was largely made for the turbocharger system that they offer, although it just happens to work beautifully for NA application too. The welds are equivalent to JDL and Nameless. I can say that with having both a friend that owns a JDL header and us both owning Nameless axlebacks and front/overpipes. It delivers more wTq and wHp than JDL's products throughout the entire range... even with the "dip" that people harp on.

I agree with nearly all of your other points. The MR2 community died a really horrific death due to knock offs drying up interest in developing the light, turbocharged system with incredible handling capabilities.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Trefoil

No offense and I don't want to pick at your post too much, but PTuning did make their header "out of tubes, a nice merge collector and no cat." It was largely made for the turbocharger system that they offer, although it just happens to work beautifully for NA application too. The welds are equivalent to JDL and Nameless. I can say that with having both a friend that owns a JDL header and us both owning Nameless axlebacks and front/overpipes. It delivers more wTq and wHp than JDL's products throughout the entire range... even with the "dip" that people harp on.

I agree with nearly all of your other points. The MR2 community died a really horrific death due to knock offs drying up interest in developing the light, turbocharged system with incredible handling capabilities.

The point about a simplistic 'tubes collector cat delete' isn't that it's bad. There are lots that make gains. The point is that it's simple enough design-wise (OEM manifold fitment plus better flow is enough to start on) and there is no reason to directly knock off an existing different design.

PTuning makes a nice product and they did it on their own.

These Private Label guys jigged up and copied another company's product that took a bunch of work to arrive at a nonstandard end result.

[Trefoil]

Originally Posted by Dimman

The point about a simplistic 'tubes collector cat delete' isn't that it's bad. There are lots that make gains. The point is that it's simple enough design-wise (OEM manifold fitment plus better flow is enough to start on) and there is no reason to directly knock off an existing different design.

PTuning makes a nice product and they did it on their own.

These Private Label guys jigged up and copied another company's product that took a bunch of work to arrive at a nonstandard end result.

I agree wholeheartedly. These fellows/companies brought us products that even the JDM Giants could not deliver. They put tons of their resources into it and our community has been very supportive. The copypasta crap that comes after they made their product really dries up any interest in risking a product that gets spoofed in two years at most. The MR2 community was forever handicapped by it.

[Cross]

While off topic I can't resist.

The MR2 Community and many others like it did not die because of copies. The MR2 Community and many others saw far more destruction from shops like Southwest Speedworks taking money for services and never delivering, selling customers parts and scamming anyone they could.

Copies did not kill that community nor others, the fact that new technology came out that was a better option gave way to natural progression. Hell the Plug and Play MS units for the MR2's was a great advancement for them.

User base is also another reason the MR2 was a short lived vehicle that has a few unfortunate issues such as people who thought they were worth gold and those who knew nothing about them continually wrecking or blowing them up. I can name other communities that suffered the same fate it's just natural progression and to be honest the FRS and BRZ might just go that same route it keeps going back and forth if the car is going to have a next generation. (I would like to see it but then I have said that about many vehicles I liked)

Copies kill themselves when they are truly cheap but normally the decent ones get used by those who work on a budget and those who spend more go for others. (Hints my comment prior about taking the market but that again is just my opinion)

Those who brand hug for no reason other than a supposed claim they are not a part of nor really understand while wishing harm or ill will towards those who don't agree with them is just immaturity and does nothing productive.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Cross

While off topic I can't resist.

The MR2 Community and many others like it did not die because of copies. The MR2 Community and many others saw far more destruction from shops like Southwest Speedworks taking money for services and never delivering, selling customers parts and scamming anyone they could.

Copies did not kill that community nor others, the fact that new technology came out that was a better option gave way to natural progression. Hell the Plug and Play MS units for the MR2's was a great advancement for them.

User base is also another the MR2 was a short lived vehicle that has a few unfortunately issues such as people who thought they were worth gold and those who knew nothing about them continually wrecking or blowing them up. I can name other communities that suffered the same fate it's just natural progression and to be honest the FRS and BRZ might just go that same route it keeps going back and forth if the car is going to have a next generation. (I would like to see it but then I have said that about many vehicles I liked)

Copies kill themselves when they are truly cheap but normally the decent ones get used by those who work on a budget and those who spend more go for others. (Hints my comment prior about taking the market but that again is just my opinion)

Those who brand hug for no reason other than a supposed claim they are not a part of nor really understand while wishing harm or ill will towards those who don't agree with them is just immaturity and does nothing productive.

Proliferation of cheap knock offs are an indicator of a declining performance community. Mk3 Supras and MR2s have been brought up. Honda should be brought up as a prime example.

This car's just touching its first refresh and we already have shithead apologists getting 100% knockoffs rather than a midgrade original. Wow.

Doom, people. Doom.

[mrk1]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Proliferation of cheap knock offs are an indicator of a declining performance community. Mk3 Supras and MR2s have been brought up. Honda should be brought up as a prime example.

This car's just touching its first refresh and we already have shithead apologists getting 100% knockoffs rather than a midgrade original. Wow.

Doom, people. Doom.

I agree, I very surprised how many people are buying these cars that aren't terribly cheap but are willing to bolt on cheap parts just to mod it quick.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Proliferation of cheap knock offs are an indicator of a declining performance community. Mk3 Supras and MR2s have been brought up. Honda should be brought up as a prime example.

This car's just touching its first refresh and we already have shithead apologists getting 100% knockoffs rather than a midgrade original. Wow.

Doom, people. Doom.

Yes the MK3 did not go down hill because of other factors it was just copies...

So Midgrade for a 25k car new and 18k car used is a 1200 header... compared to those at 33k+ having Headers at 900-1100 using more pipe in larger diameters while having tons of competition and that's just doom for those communities even though they have been going strong for over almost 20 years now....

Nameless is Top grade not Mid, I assume your talking about another knock off but none come to mind that I paid any attention to. But then I said this already, there is nothing new about this. Every community see's it and 90% of said deaths come from better options presenting themselves in engine design, management, fueling, handling, and many others.

Oh well this thread has just gone down hill from the OP's original post but I guess it should be expected.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Cross

Yes the MK3 did not go down hill because of other factors it was just copies...

So Midgrade for a 25k car new and 18k car used is a 1200 header... compared to those at 33k+ having Headers at 900-1100 using more pipe in larger diameters while having tons of competition and that's just doom for those communities even though they have been going strong for over almost 20 years now....

Nameless is Top grade not Mid, I assume your talking about another knock off but none come to mind that I paid any attention to. But then I said this already, there is nothing new about this. Every community see's it and 90% of said deaths come from better options presenting themselves in engine design, management, fueling, handling, and many others.

Oh well this thread has just gone down hill from the OP's original post but I guess it should be expected.

The mentioned brands, JDL, PTuning and Nameless are the high end. Out of those 3 Nameless is the mid price. These are all original design, craftsman made with quality sourced materials.

You bought your header for the sole reason of wanting a Nameless header but being too fucking cheap to buy it.

There are plenty of $500 headers that aren't knock offs. This header has no dyno charts. It's unproven. The only thing this has is that it is a direct copy of the Nameless one. Nameless being recognized as one of the top tier manufacturers for this platform.

Good for you claiming you 'respect' their work, but buying the knock off. You're either a flat out liar or one of the stupidest self absorbed pieces of shit the world has ever seen.