FRS / BRZ Intake Manifold - Development Thread - FT-86SpeedFactory by Velox

[2much]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

So long, I've been looking too hard, I've been waiting too long
Sometimes I don't know what I will find, I only know it's a matter of, time

When you need an intake, when you need an intake
It feels so right, so much power, I need to know if you need it too
Maybe I'm wrong, won't you tell me if I'm accelerating too strong
This wallet of mine has been hurt before, this time I want to be sure

I've been waiting for a manifold like you to come into my life
I've been waiting for a intake like you, your engine will survive
I've been waiting for a new intake to make me feel alive
Yeah, waiting for a manifold like you to come into my life

You're so good, when we make power it's understood
It's more than a tune or KoolBRZ can say
Only Velox could make it this way

When you love your car, yeah, really love love your car
I know it's right, from the moment I floor it deep in the night
There's nowhere on earth that I'd rather be than thrashing you mercilessly

With apologies to Foreigner

I needed to hear that. thanks

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Tim Radley

Stock manifold doesn't run equal air distribution and the stock ecu mapping is offset on each cylinder to compensate for this. So technically each cylinder will now need mapping individually to make this run right. Cool looking product

Originally Posted by Tim Radley

I'm not aware of any threads talking about it but most oem ecu's on a performance car i've ever measured in this way runs different cylinder maps or at least offset tables for each cylinder for both ignition and fuel. This is why aftermarket ecu's with a single table for fuel and also for ignition often run pretty badly at idle and transient compared to oem.

I'm running a Motec ecu on my GT86 with 4 lambda's (one per header) and its very clear just how bad the intake and exhaust paths are and the amount of difference required. Its not a constant offset either, amounts cross over. If you measure each intake runner and exhaust runner length they all have a different total overall tuned length so it's not surprising at all.

When will pricing and completion date be confirmed on this?

Originally Posted by Kodename47

What offset do you mean? I know that fuel and timing trims are available. They just aren't available to end users (at the moment).

this

[Xero-Limit]

@Calum you can adjust fueling and timing trim on a per cylinder basis. But to really do anything with that you'll need a 4 channel EGT or AFR for fuel, and some knock equipment for the timing.

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

@Calum you can adjust fueling and timing trim on a per cylinder basis. But to really do anything with that you'll need a 4 channel EGT or AFR for fuel, and some knock equipment for the timing.

If only the access to the per cylinder knock thresholds were logable or accessible like they are on the FA20DIT or on the Motec, that would allow a little part of the picture become more apparent. A lambda sensor in every exhaust port would be ideal but as Tim said it's a big investment. You just have to be aware that this is the case.

So on the stock manifold the front 2 cylinders will run richer than the rear based on the TB to runner angle? If so, is this something that increases as RPM increase?

[Blu-by-U]

Oh Velox, I need air for my engine, so it can make more power.
The stock air runs are so kinky, the engine works hard to breathe.

Oh Velox, help me end this nightmare, so that I can track faster.
Please make more power for me and make my engine run stronger.


Go, the jig is up, the news is out, the parts look astounding.
When data is in, post the numbers up and don't bother rounding.
Need an intake that flows real smooth and let the engine breathe,
To go down the road.


Many, many apologies to Styx

[Turdinator]

This thread just keeps getting better

[zooki]

Now is not exactly the time,
To try and make a simple rhyme,
Let's all wait for the dyno numbers,
instead of becoming mere word fumblers
No speculations need be fanned,
stick to the facts that are at hand,
Velox is trying to raise the bar,
You ask why? Because racecar...

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by Tim Radley

That is the beauty of having an ecu like the Motec. It allows all this stuff to be logged and experimented with. Knock for example, all 4 cylinders run differently. Even when fuelling is improved, the air path and firing order robbing other cylinders leads to some cylinders knocking before others.

In answer to your two questions. Its not the case they run richer, at some points they run leaner. The required fuel difference crosses over. In other words, at a certain rpm cylinder 3 requires more fuel than cylinder 1 and at another rpm it requires less. It's due to the tuned length and airflow issues.

My concern was that if the stock ecu has cylinder fuel offsets buried within it then not being able to adjust this with an aftermarket table will lead to a proper manifold then not working as good as it can do.

I'd be surprised if the stock ecu hasn't got individual mapping buried deep within as the stock ecu runs smoother than an aftermarket one without individual cylinder mapping. Be nice for an expert on the stock ecu to chime in that has actually dug around inside it and knows exactly what tables are in there. I could be wrong here.

ECUtek has the ability to do this on the WRX lump, similar to the Motec just not as a live display:


No one has had any joy with these on the FA20 ECU though. Perhaps Toyota's involvement?

Here's what I have access to in Romraider and ECUtek:


The front pair are A and B which have the retarded timing as standard. The ECUtek fuel trims are actually RaceROM patch maps so aren't the stock per cylinder fuel trims. They are all set to 100% so leave the stock settings as they are by default. Having looked about, older Subarus do have Per Cylinder Injector comp tables that are defined on the open source platforms, but I haven't seen them for any of the defined ROMs on this platform yet. Obviously I can't see what the ECUtek master tuners have access to as they have far more than even the RaceROM upgrade guys have.

@ztan @Td-d ??

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by Tim Radley

Can you adjust the individual cylinder knock levels in the EcuTek? If i start doing more of these i may have to look at getting the EcuTek kit as not everyone wants to pay Motec money.

If you can, it'll be at master tuner level and not on either of the retail versions that I have access to, so the best bet is it ask them direcly. When I last enquired they said that the allotted time spent searching for the parameters pulled up nothing. My guess is that if they discovered the knock sensitivity tables then this would mean that they would be able to discover the logging parameters as I would assume that the code would link to each other within the ROM.

My hunch is that it's in there somewhere, it's just a bit different to all other Subaru 32 bit ROMs so that the discovery isn't as straight forward as defining some of the others.

[Td-d]

Per cylinder timing, and per injector fueling comps are available in OS, yes. I have not found the per cylinder knock (if it exists) in these roms - found in the other Subarus fairly easily.

I've pulled the numerous knock sensitivity parameters and tables (including the per cylinder tables) on other Subaru roms - but have not found them (other than the knock sensor scaling) on these roms.

[VerusEric]

Really enjoying the discussion on the OEM ECU's capabilities. Still doesn't sound like there is a definitive answer as to *if the OEM ECU controls fuel/spark per cylinder in the stock calibration*. Regardless, our goal was to even the distribution out.

Attached are a few updated pictures:

[Tbird232ci]

I'm curious to know the price tag on that aluminum billet.

[RJasonKlein]

I subscribed to this thread early on and can't wait to see the results, because I'm interested in building power while staying normally aspirated. The CNC milled billet pieces look stunning, but the more I see, the more I think this unit should be made out of thermoplastic. Obviously, my primary concerns are heat-soak and weight (particularly up high on the engine, where it affects CG). I can understand prototyping in billet, but have you considered making the final piece in thermoplastic, carbon fiber, or a hybrid thereof?

[VerusEric]

Originally Posted by RJasonKlein

I subscribed to this thread early on and can't wait to see the results, because I'm interested in building power while staying normally aspirated. The CNC milled billet pieces look stunning, but the more I see, the more I think this unit should be made out of thermoplastic. Obviously, my primary concerns are heat-soak and weight (particularly up high on the engine, where it affects CG). I can understand prototyping in billet, but have you considered making the final piece in thermoplastic, carbon fiber, or a hybrid thereof?

The weight difference was mentioned earlier on. This manifold will weigh about 12 lbs, the OEM unit is around 6.5-7 lbs.

Yes, we are considering and have been considering different materials. It will come down to various parameters; but for prototype, like you mentioned, a machined piece was the way to go.