When does driving MT get "fun"

[Sport-Tech]

^ Yes, but if I go auto I will drive it like a clutchless manual. Problem solved, for the most part.

[Blue FRS]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

^ If you can consistently do perfectly-matched heel/toes as you describe, great, but for those that can't they risk prematurely wearing out their clutch or causing other drivetrain issues through shock. Plus they will never be able to enjoy driving their car at 10/10ths through a corner if they don't heel/toe because they will have to do all their braking first, take their foot off the brake to blip/downshift, and then head for the apex. There is something very satisfying about snapping off a perfect paddle downshift right as you clip the apex without unsettling the car. It may be more fun to do the same thing with heel/toe, but it's a better alternative than endless frustration.

you should have all your brakeing done by turn in and be in the right gear befor the corner. Or at least 90% of braking done and trail brake to apex then power out of the corner. I would not recomend turning off the electronics if you are going to downshift at the apex.

[Sport-Tech]

^ Tried trail braking with a downshift just before the apex in an auto on my test drive - I was near the cornering limit and it did not upset the rear end. This was likely because of the perfectly rev-matched downshift. It wasn't the VSC that kept the rear settled because I could jab the throttle and swing the rear out several inches in a tight corner even with all the nannies on.

If you don't trail brake to the fullest extent your car can do it, your times won't be optimal. Maximum trail braking sometimes puts you in a position where you can't downshift enough prior to corner entry, as you lose enough additional speed trail braking that you need to go down another gear while cornering for maximum post-apex acceleration (a common occurrence in decreasing-radius corners).

[bneale]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

Audi seems to have no problem winning lemans with your "not really manual" gearbox, i guess that's not a real sports car then..

Using your 2nd foot in no way makes the car more sports like.

The whole point of a manual car is dictating what gear you are in, it's unfortunate that we require a crutch to operate it as such. The clutch is stone age technology. You people really need to start looking ahead.

And yes i said you people.

WOW really? You seriously trolling for an argument out of me here. I'll respond.

First of all, nobody said anything was wrong with an Auto. So just because Audi wins Le Mans with them, it has nothing to do with what I previously said. You're just trying to be an ass here.

Same with the next statement. When it comes to a DSG transmission, in my opinion its not a true manual. No clutch means its not really "manual control". It just means you get to pick which gear your in without having to worry about the drive line. Again, this has nothing to do with someone saying "using your left foot makes the car more sport like". You're grasping at straws for an argument.

I'm not even going to start commenting on the "you people" argument.

[styl3z]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

And on heel-toe, which I am currently trying to learn - it's not easy, learn it on a PC wheel before risking your new car's transmission - you are going to make lots of mistakes, it can be frustrating.

Hey, I was wondering, what game or simulator are you using?

I want to try and learn on pc before I try the real thing in my FRS.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by styl3z

Hey, I was wondering, what game or simulator are you using?

I want to try and learn on pc before I try the real thing in my FRS.

I am using GTR2, which you can buy and download from SiImBin's web site for next to nothing these days. It allows you to run off all auto-clutching and (in the car's .hdc file) switch off any auto-blipping so you have a fully manual car, which can stall out and acts just like the real thing. Practicing on a Z3 M GT3 car at Le Mans (Nice LONG straights for up/down shifting without having to worry about corners).

Whatever wheel you use should have a gated manual shifter and stiff pedals (including a clutch of course) for best realism. G27 is a good choice.

[ArKiTeCkT]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lange

You shouldn't be doing one or the other, you should be doing both.

You shouldn't just be coasting in neutral just braking, and you shouldn't just downshift and then pull out the clutch to decelerate. You should be braking and downshifting when coming to a stop, preferably with rev-matching to avoid wear on the clutch.

Jeff

Is there a difference between shifting from 4th to neutral just before the engine stalls OR shifting from 4-3-2-neutral. Does it prolong the clutch?

[Future]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lange

You shouldn't be doing one or the other, you should be doing both.

You shouldn't just be coasting in neutral just braking, and you shouldn't just downshift and then pull out the clutch to decelerate. You should be braking and downshifting when coming to a stop, preferably with rev-matching to avoid wear on the clutch.

Jeff

What the hell? Totally useless... Your brakes are designed to stop the car, thats it. Rev matching to come to a complete stop is TOTALLY useless, unless you've got an exhaust and want attention.

[Jeff Lange]

Originally Posted by ArKiTeCkT

Is there a difference between shifting from 4th to neutral just before the engine stalls OR shifting from 4-3-2-neutral. Does it prolong the clutch?

You should never brake to the point where the engine wants to stall, you should clutch out before that happens. Downshifting while coming to a stop will keep the engine in its fuel cut-off deceleration mode, maximizing engine braking and reducing fuel consumption. Slowing down with the car in neutral uses more gas than slowing down with the engine in gear, but if you are below the fuel cut-off RPM, you are working against the engine (it is trying to keep it running, you are mechanically trying to slow it down). You should be downshifting as you slow down until you get to a relatively slow speed, then you'll coast to a stop, but it will be quite slow (maybe 2000rpm in 2nd).

Originally Posted by Future

What the hell? Totally useless... Your brakes are designed to stop the car, thats it. Rev matching to come to a complete stop is TOTALLY useless, unless you've got an exhaust and want attention.

Not totally useless, in that you maintain in control of the car, and that you wear your brakes less. You should almost never be coasting with the car out of gear, that doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure who taught you how to drive manual, but you shouldn't be out of gear coasting to a stop using just the brakes, it's considered bad form and generally frowned upon. If you need to start accelerating again to avoid an incident or similar, being in gear with the clutch engaged is always preferred.

The only time I wouldn't do it is if I was in a car with a loud exhaust, or if it burned oil on deceleration or similar. That would be obnoxious.

Jeff

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by ArKiTeCkT

Is there a difference between shifting from 4th to neutral just before the engine stalls OR shifting from 4-3-2-neutral. Does it prolong the clutch?

Clearly the more shifting you do the more you are wearing the clutch and the synchros, especially if you don't rev match perfectly (which is very hard to do). And the nominal increase in brake wear you incur by shifting from 4 directly to neutral (because you are not utilizing the full value of engine braking) is inconsequential. Anyway, brake pads are a lot cheaper to replace than a clutch or other tranny components! Going 4-3-2-1 every time you stop - that may be fine if you live in rural Nevada with 20 miles between stop signs but in a city? A lot of effort for next to nothing. Nobody I know does it. The gas saving will be very minor and not worth the aggro unless you are hypermiling. And in a city the additional noise is not appreciated (at night especially) - some residential areas even have "no engine braking" signs up on downhill slopes.

[Jeff Lange]

You don't shift into 1st when slowing down in most cars, the ratio is too short and it puts a lot of wear on the synchros, however "no engine braking" signs are for diesel trucks that have engine retarder brakes. They are not meant to, nor do they, apply to passenger vehicles.

Jeff

[Slartibartfast]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lange

"No engine braking" signs are for diesel trucks that have engine retarder brakes. They are not meant, nor do they, apply to passenger vehicles.

Jeff

[Jeff Lange]

Just a quick follow up to the comments that had been happening before, and that is to say that there are no hard and fast rules on when to downshift and when to coast, what is right for one situation may not be right for all situations. There are times when I don't downshift to 2nd, just stopping at 3rd, and I'm not always going from 6-5-4-3-2 either, that's just a lot of wasted shifts. Skipping gears is common practice even when downshifting, and is typically taught by professional driving schools (this again isn't always the best, look at the S2000 thread linked to earlier).

If you are in 6th, downshifting from there to 3rd while braking/rev-matching and then slowing down to about 1500-2000rpm before clutching in is often probably appropriate, or similar.

I'm just saying, being in gear is almost always more appropriate than not being in gear, and being in a gear that can give you a somewhat usable powerband to get out of dangerous situations instead of hitting the gas in neutral is preferable. Everyone's driving style is different, and you will develop what works best for you in time. Some people like to shift earlier, some people prefer higher rpms.

There's not much more satisfying when driving a manual transmission than a perfect rev-matched heel-toe downshift. If you've practiced and know the car, you can pretty much do it almost perfectly every time. There is minimal wear on the clutch. I've pulled clutches out of my cars at 80-90,000 kms or more and it still looks almost new.

If you're looking not to wear components out, and you are not comfortable rev-matching or heel-toeing, by all means don't do it, but that doesn't mean it is the correct way to do it, or that you are driving "better".

I'm not recommending people be shifting all the time and to every gear every time they're accelerating/slowing down. For example if you are on the highway coming up to a turn-off and you are slowing down in say 5th and you slow down in gear and get to the corner and you feel you should be in 2nd, go to 2nd and continue on your way, but I would not suggest clutching in or going to neutral and then coasting/braking with the engine disengaged and then going into 2nd. That is wearing out more components than just staying in the gear and simply shifting to second.

In that situation I would probably go 5-4-2 or 5-3-2, but honestly every corner is different, speeds are different, surroundings are different.

Basically: Read/watch/learn as much as you can both about how the car works and why things are the way they are and you can get the most from your car for a long period. My main point is that, in most cases, is is almost always preferable to be in some gear while slowing down, and not in neutral or pushing in the clutch until you are at a low speed.

Jeff

[ArKiTeCkT]

^