Scion FT-86 FR-S

[70NYD]

Originally Posted by oneday

Troll? Because I can, and do, state and defend my posts? Because I don't agree with you and I call you out on your bigotry and false logic? I wouldn't delete or edit a single post I've made--especially when it's been quoted to try and disprove/reinterpret something I've said (and not very well, I might add--but more on that in a minute). I've brought logical arguments to the table and will debate these points with anyone that wants to discuss them.



Yes, Scion is supporting Dan Gardner Racing and two other Scion teams in the series, similar to how Subaru supports Vermont SportsCar. Maybe Toyota wants Scion to build the ground work needed to develop a racing heritage of it's own--which some feel people here is a prerequisite for having a RWD car. Honda races under the Acura brand in the US (in the same series as DGR's tC), how is that so different?

Mazda doesn't get to claim that "

program (it's really not hard to get, and that's the point).

Nope still can't drift with it, but DGR can road race with it, which is a much better achievement in my book.



I know you are late to this debate, but it was not said or implied that the tC was appropriate for X-Games or rally cross (though there were two Miatas running last weekend and doing pretty good and a Civic Si and a Mazda3 made it to the 2WD A-Main). I can turn your argument around and say, "but you don't see any STIs in NASCAR, do you?" Not really the right car for the series, is it? Within the SCCA Pro WC series the DGR tC is in a different class than the STI because the STI has more horsepower, a different drivetrain and is generally a higher performance car.

I've never said the STI was not faster than the tC. The STI is an all around better performance car out of the box. Unfortunately your points lack pointiness.



As I've said before, you can't have a racing heritage if you don't race. Scion is getting their cars into races. And winning with them. Say what you want but Scion has to start somewhere--they obviously missed the mark with the drift scene, so maybe they are working on correcting that? I'm sure some fan boy scoffed at Citroen building a car for WRC in the 90s [I am in no way implying that I think Scion or the tC could be as prolific at winning any given racing championships as the Citroen team has been in the WRC...but it could theoretically happen].

Now, on to the fun one.

Sure. Hit me with your facts.


Awesome! Where can I pick it up? This is so cool! Oh, my god I've never won a car before! Wait, is this like one of those joke lottery tickets where it says in fine print on the back that I can claim my car from the tooth fairy? I mean, really, that's just mean...telling a guy he won a car and then not following through? Man, and I was going to donate it to charity and help starving kids. Oh, well, it was only a tC, probably a leftover and an automatic, and not something really cool anyway.

FACT - When entering a discussion with the subject being a "talk about facts" it is important that you actually state facts.

Despite you already having lost this fact-based debate I still want to reply to the next fun-filled "FACT" you threw out there.



Correct. Wait, are we talking about the tC you just told me I won in the previous "FACT?" Because I would definitely turn a free car into a track car; that is a FACT. I do not deem the Scion tC that I paid for and daily drive worthy to take on the track--mostly for fear of wadding it up and not having a daily driver. That is why I bought and track the Miata--can't beat it for $4500.


Ok, wow, you went off the deep-end there with that logic leap..and I am really confused by how color came into the equation. How does the my ownership of a tC and my not racing my tC impair my judgment?

Let's look at this differently: Bill (he's fictitious, just like that tC you said I won) just put a down payment on an Audi A4 that he will use strictly as an appliance to go to work and get groceries with. Bill also owns an Porsche, it's paid for and race-prepped. Bill does not race his A4, instead he races his Porsche--it is, after all, a better platform, is already race prepped and paid for. By your argument, because Bill does not race his A4, but instead races his Porsche, Bill's is biased and his judgment about A4s is clouded and he should not be allowed to compare the similarities, differences or merits of an Audi A4 or DTM Audi A4 to any other race or street car? [sarcasm]Suuurrre.[/sarcasm]

I've said so many times it's become a bit of a meme: I am as unbiased as one can get on the "should the new FT-86 be a Scion or a Toyota" issue--you and Matador and Dimman have a strong, biased hatred for Scion cars and their owners and have stated/shown that time and again. Badge it as a flippin' "70NYD" (now that is a badge I would change), just so long as it comes out and is at least mostly like the concept.

I'll quote myself, "I do not love [the tC], I do not hate [the tC]." If the tC was a complete piece of garbage, I would proclaim so from on high and support your statements that Scion sucks. But the FACT is Scion has very well built, reliable cars that do what they were designed to do very well. Some Scion models might also be competitive in certain racing series, given enough development.

I entered this thread to try and root out the reasons that you all harbor so much animosity towards Toyota for potentially branding this exciting new car as a Scion. Clearly I am not getting any reasonable, rational or logical arguments back from most people here, so I will leave you to your myopic world and I will continue to enjoy my life--that is not to say I will not stay active on this forum or within this thread, but I will certainly not read or care about what you write.

hahahaha 1st of all i CLEARLY meant OWN not won... i type 60wpm+ but rely on word to spellcheck.. im esl and my career is not based on punctuation and grammer... its based on physics and maths..
but still FACT is you own a tC and your judgment is therefore biased..
here is another interesting fact scion doesnt exist in australia.. i dont hate tc, i hate trolls.. you are a troll.. i therefore ENJOY proding you and poking you since you clearly JUST started using forums and internet to talk to ppl.. noone in their right mind actually writes letters of that magnitude as a response to a post in a forum UNLESS they are feeling VERY strongly on the topic one way or another. you said you are unbiased.. if this was so you wouldnt write 5012325 word essays as responses.. what is that saying?? cant beat them with logic baffle them with bullshit??? shit you should know sounds like your life motto
also my name is Tony (70NYD) and i am fucking proud of it.. why on earth do you think i would change that you crazy dutch bastard...
i like you reply cus you found one SPELLING mistake and made a story about it. you really need a life
also your AudiVsPorsche idea is retarded, because a Audi CAN be a race car from stock.. where as a tC.. LOL
nice try to digg at me but you fail m8
you need a well constructed argument to actually have a viable response.. you based your WHOLE thing on one spelling mistake, and unless you are a complete retard, you knew it was a spelling mistake..

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

also your AudiVsPorsche idea is retarded, because a Audi CAN be a race car from stock.. where as a tC.. LOL
nice try to digg at me but you fail m8
you need a well constructed argument to actually have a viable response.. you based your WHOLE thing on one spelling mistake, and unless you are a complete retard, you knew it was a spelling mistake..

What Racing Series can you name, where an Audi competes in 100% stock Forum?

[Dragonitti]

For whatever reason, my post don't show up under my original user name...RhythmnSmoke, so I had to make an additional account and now it seems to be working properly. So, just an FYI...this is not my 1st post like what's indicated above. I'm going to copy my post from my other account and repost them under this account since I don't think it was showing up under my old account.

[Dragonitti]

And while we are on that, Might I add the EXTENSIVE accomplishments achieved in the arena of Time Attack.

The World Racing Scion tC Unlimited Class FWD Manage to set the track record at 10 US race tracks across the country (aside from being the repeat Unlimited class FWD Champ). When you look at the Button Willow Raceway track records, the GM backed Chevy Cobalt held the FWD track record for 5 years.....that is until it was broke by Chris Rado's Scion tC. And as mentioned, the car has gone on to set the FWD track record at 10 race tracks across the country. You can go dig up Lap times from race tracks from Redline Time Attack and compare where their FWD tC lays it's times down compared to the AWD and RWD cars. Their FWD car is always only 1-2sec slower than the FASTEST lap time set over the whole field.

How many other cars have you ever seen do this to a 600-700whp modded R35 GTR on the race track.

Now they are geared and poised to take on the AWD track records. Yes, an AWD Scion tC. It makes 1007whp and 890wtq (and no it does not have a Motor swap)

Video
http://www.streetfire.net/video/worl...st_2083624.htm

From SEMA 2010













And then there is the Modified Class FWD Time Attack Champs PTuning in their Scion tC. Their tC makes 550+whp (Dyno Dynamics). They were the 2008 and repeat 2009 Modified Class FWD champs.








These guys are why I will always be proud to be a Scion owner.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dimman

You have to remember that Toyota was giving these things out like Hallowe'en candy to support their performance/tuner image. They are heavily supported by the factory.

Still can't drift with it.

The PTuning tC has never seen $1 from Scion Corporate. Rado's World Racing tC is factory back, but that does not negate the potential of the car itself. I don't believe you can toss money at anything and make it into a Championship winning vehicle...sorry that's not the real world. They are Time Attack cars, not drift.

When the FT-86 gets badged as a Scion you can drift all day then.....LOL.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Good point... but question come along. How many tC you see rallying vs STI? Also add along current STI sedan (stock) has 7:55 rec in Nur, how's tC? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember seeing tC in the x-game.

tC is sold in the States only, why would it be at the Nur? It's not a tC vs STI debate.

Side note: I've beaten STI's on the street in my tC... Then again, my tC was on boost.

It doesn't need to be in EVERY Motorsports to have a successful Motorsports career.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Not even close. The Genesis being overpriced does not mean it competes in any way with the Nissan Z.


The Scion RWD conversion is a grey area of the rules at best. FWD to RWD conversions should have been outlawed for drift competitions to keep the chassis legitimate. NASCAR is a spec series, the engines are built by Toyota to certain specs for the series but the advantage for Toyota is advertising not development.

Why do you think the Scion tC fits within the rules of FD? It aint because Scion spends the money for the tC to compete in it. It's because it FITS well within the statement of the rules.

FD Rule: FWD can NOT be converted to RWD to compete in FD. AWD chassis configurations may be converted to RWD to compete in FD.

tC = AWD Chassis from the Toyota Avensis....I.E...Fits well within the rules.

And Just FYI...only One of the tC's is a Tubed chassis (Tanner Foust tC). The other Ken Gushi's is not. It's a tC through and through, even running the factory motor now (just built and boosted making 600whp).

[Calais]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

What Racing Series can you name, where an Audi competes in 100% stock Forum?

1st of all; he said CAN race stock not DOES!

and 2nd; which one of the tc's youve posted were stock?

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Calais

1st of all; he said CAN race stock not DOES!

and 2nd; which one of the tc's youve posted were stock?

Any car CAN be raced in stock form for that matter, so how is that even a point worth stating?

None of them, just like None of the cars they are competing against are stock either....Point is What again?

You think they are the only modified cars in their run groups?

You think the GM built Chevy Cobalt SS that held the Button Willow track record for 5 years was stock? Held the track record that was until a Scion tC came along and smashed it by 2sec, and then came back and broke their own record they set.

The video I posted of Rado's tC on the track with the Forged Performance R35 GTR that is modded and making 600-700whp, and Rado's tC simply disappears from their R35, all the while, still being FWD.

There is being biased and then there is being BIASED and not giving credit to where credit is due.

Since when all of a sudden people are looked down upon because they BUILT their car into performance rather than buying it from the factory already performing?

Whether you build your car from less than stellar roots, or you purchase a vehicle in a higher performance price bracket, neither of the two individuals are morons or ricers, or whatever name you want to make for them. As long as it's fast/quick and performs then it's all good in my book.

I've beaten Evo's, STI's, S2k's, 350z's (including the one I use to own), 240sx w/SR and RB motorswaps in them. I've done this ON and OFF the track plenty of times with my Scion tC. Does that make me look bad because I beat those cars that cost twice as much, or does it make those cars and owners look bad for looking at the tail lights of my Scion tC?

[70NYD]

also, comparing a Porsche to a Audi A4 is silly, since you did not say WHICH porche.. could be the cayanne for all i know.. could also be a GT4.. those cars are not in the same league and neither is in the same leauge as a A4 which is a LUXURY cruiser from stock and not a purpose built short run production car..
and again with the tC crap.. NONE OF THOSE IS 10% stock.. u shut your self down with the one with NEED FOR SPEED sticker.. i mean LOOK at the pic of the board you posted.. thats a tubular spaceframe with carbon composite LOOKALIKE body.. might i add that the body is also MUCH more aero than stock.. i wonder how long the (apparently) stock engine can hold the 50PSI, or is that just a one time run and rebuild like top fuel slammers... 1007WHP WOW thats impressive.. oh wait the exhaust sticks out the bonnet.. oh wait its AWD, oh wait ITS FUCKING PURPOSE BUILT
that was the whole point of people bagging out scions, for the car to get anywhere and do anything it needs EXTENSIVE modifications.. honestly id rather spend half the money and get a r34vspec2 and mod it.. at least i dont need 50psi to push over1000hp from the rb..
OH WAIT.. SHIT!!!
YOU ARE A TC OWNER..
sorry i just wasted my time since your biased judgment will not let you see reason and you will come back with another post on how im wrong and tC is awesome and how it is the best stock car in the world..
did it ever occur to you that they werent really giving it a go when they raced you? or do you run 20PSI in 20K motor and still call it stock??
any car can beat ANY car.. given right ammount of money is spent.. point is money vs reliability vs performance vs longevity.. and its still not stock
how many STOCK tC's have beaten STOCK Evo's, STI's, S2k's, 350z's, 240sx??
and no offence but the chevy cobalt isnt much to compare to.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

The PTuning tC has never seen $1 from Scion Corporate. Rado's World Racing tC is factory back, but that does not negate the potential of the car itself. I don't believe you can toss money at anything and make it into a Championship winning vehicle...sorry that's not the real world. They are Time Attack cars, not drift.

When the FT-86 gets badged as a Scion you can drift all day then.....LOL.

So being the only factory-backed Open FWD class car should be a challenge? Give me a break. The reason they are doing so well is that only Toyota and Chevy seemed to care enough about FWD time-attack to spend stupid amounts of factory-sponsorship money on it.

Name a 'factory-backed' AWD or RWD team that is getting even 10% of the money that Scion is throwing around.

As for the pics of the other car and the grandiose statement that, no it doesn't have a motor swap, well you should read a bit more of your own pic's specs... Very good, its using a fully-built 2AZFE. Fully built stock-based motors making ridiculous hp is nothing new (BMW F1 engines in the 80s made over 1000hp/L that's 1500 hp using blocks that came from road cars, used ones for the seasoning of the metal but they had some money spent on them too).

But did you miss the fact that it's a completely custom chassis and carbon-fiber body? Oops.

There is nothing off the showroom floor of a tC that says 'this will make a great race car'. You need to throw ass-loads of dollars at them.

The point that I've been repeatedly trying to make is that Toyota North America/Scion doesn't give two shits about producing a real performance car. They rely on these fantasy Scions, NASCAR Camrys and marketing campaigns.

This wasn't the case in the olden days of Toyota sports cars like the MR2, All-Trac/GT4 Celica, and Supra Turbos.

Scion and Toyota North America's marketing departments can lick my balls. Then they can step aside and let the engineers back in charge of performance.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

also, comparing a Porsche to a Audi A4 is silly, since you did not say WHICH porche.. could be the cayanne for all i know.. could also be a GT4.. those cars are not in the same league and neither is in the same leauge as a A4 which is a LUXURY cruiser from stock and not a purpose built short run production car..
and again with the tC crap.. NONE OF THOSE IS 10% stock.. u shut your self down with the one with NEED FOR SPEED sticker.. i mean LOOK at the pic of the board you posted.. thats a tubular spaceframe with carbon composite LOOKALIKE body.. might i add that the body is also MUCH more aero than stock.. i wonder how long the (apparently) stock engine can hold the 50PSI, or is that just a one time run and rebuild like top fuel slammers... 1007WHP WOW thats impressive.. oh wait the exhaust sticks out the bonnet.. oh wait its AWD, oh wait ITS FUCKING PURPOSE BUILT
that was the whole point of people bagging out scions, for the car to get anywhere and do anything it needs EXTENSIVE modifications.. honestly id rather spend half the money and get a r34vspec2 and mod it.. at least i dont need 50psi to push over1000hp from the rb..
OH WAIT.. SHIT!!!
YOU ARE A TC OWNER..
sorry i just wasted my time since your biased judgment will not let you see reason and you will come back with another post on how im wrong and tC is awesome and how it is the best stock car in the world..
did it ever occur to you that they werent really giving it a go when they raced you? or do you run 20PSI in 20K motor and still call it stock??
any car can beat ANY car.. given right ammount of money is spent.. point is money vs reliability vs performance vs longevity.. and its still not stock
how many STOCK tC's have beaten STOCK Evo's, STI's, S2k's, 350z's, 240sx??
and no offence but the chevy cobalt isnt much to compare to.

I don't think, he's going that far into it.

I gotta agree w 70NYD, gotta do extensive work to make tC a good car... but that can be sad bout almost any car.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

also, comparing a Porsche to a Audi A4 is silly, since you did not say WHICH porche.. could be the cayanne for all i know.. could also be a GT4.. those cars are not in the same league and neither is in the same leauge as a A4 which is a LUXURY cruiser from stock and not a purpose built short run production car..
and again with the tC crap.. NONE OF THOSE IS 10% stock.. u shut your self down with the one with NEED FOR SPEED sticker.. i mean LOOK at the pic of the board you posted.. thats a tubular spaceframe with carbon composite LOOKALIKE body.. might i add that the body is also MUCH more aero than stock..

The same body kit is offered by World Racing. It's their Scion tC widebody. The Black FWD tC is not carbon, it's their standard WB. The AWD tC is WD. That's one example of a World Class Track Record setting tC.

The PTuning tC is not the same and can be built by the common guy. YET it still has a repeat Time Attack Championship.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

i wonder how long the (apparently) stock engine can hold the 50PSI, or is that just a one time run and rebuild like top fuel slammers... 1007WHP WOW thats impressive.. oh wait the exhaust sticks out the bonnet.. oh wait its AWD, oh wait ITS FUCKING PURPOSE BUILT
that was the whole point of people bagging out scions, for the car to get anywhere and do anything it needs EXTENSIVE modifications.. honestly id rather spend half the money and get a r34vspec2 and mod it.. at least i dont need 50psi to push over1000hp from the rb..

Oh WAIT I forgot you need more specs since you don't know what your talking about when it comes to Scions and what they are capable of. The FWD (black one) is still pushing 900+whp. Both of them are on it....wait...for it......Stock Sleeves in the block. Of course they are purpose built. Purpose Built to be faster than anything in their class and categories, and in MOST cases, faster than the RWD and AWD PURPOSE built race cars they run with in the series (go do your homework and check out the lap times).

What you rather spend your money on is your personal choice, that no way shape or form reflects how another car supposedly Sucks now does it. If the actual chassis of the car (Which is an AWD chassis shared from the Toyota Avensis) sucked so bad, then teams would not be rocking it and taking home trophies.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

OH WAIT.. SHIT!!!
YOU ARE A TC OWNER..
sorry i just wasted my time since your biased judgment will not let you see reason and you will come back with another post on how im wrong and tC is awesome and how it is the best stock car in the world..
did it ever occur to you that they werent really giving it a go when they raced you? or do you run 20PSI in 20K motor and still call it stock??
any car can beat ANY car.. given right ammount of money is spent.. point is money vs reliability vs performance vs longevity.. and its still not stock
how many STOCK tC's have beaten STOCK Evo's, STI's, S2k's, 350z's, 240sx??
and no offence but the chevy cobalt isnt much to compare to.

How many Stock tC's cost the same as an Evo, STI, S2k, 350z??

And no offense, how many track records have you broken? How much track experience do you have in general?

How do you go to a RACE Track and NOT Race? Yet again, you make comments that make no sense. What part of ON and OFF the track was not clear? What part of (even against my own 350z) did you over read?

I have 50+ vids of me racing my tC. Kinda hard to dispute a clear 3 honk and then both cars accelerating as them NOT RACING. Or kinda hard to dispute a video of cars on a Race track and Me eating them up in the corners, eventually causing them to flag me by.

Trust me, you don't know more about what tC's are capable of than I do. I've raced my tC going on 4 years now, both on and off of Boost. It does not take 20lbs of boost for a tC to beat ANY of those cars I listed. Only takes about 8-10lbs of boost on a tC. 20lbs of boost on a tC would be in the neighborhood of 450whp.

You did get one part right though...I do own a tC. And who better to give people explanations and experiences about this car, other than someone WITH experience....Unlike yourself, who just look at marketing commercials and think that's what every Scion owner is about. How Lame..

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dimman

So being the only factory-backed Open FWD class car should be a challenge? Give me a break. The reason they are doing so well is that only Toyota and Chevy seemed to care enough about FWD time-attack to spend stupid amounts of factory-sponsorship money on it.

Name a 'factory-backed' AWD or RWD team that is getting even 10% of the money that Scion is throwing around.

As for the pics of the other car and the grandiose statement that, no it doesn't have a motor swap, well you should read a bit more of your own pic's specs... Very good, its using a fully-built 2AZFE. Fully built stock-based motors making ridiculous hp is nothing new (BMW F1 engines in the 80s made over 1000hp/L that's 1500 hp using blocks that came from road cars, used ones for the seasoning of the metal but they had some money spent on them too).

But did you miss the fact that it's a completely custom chassis and carbon-fiber body? Oops.

There is nothing off the showroom floor of a tC that says 'this will make a great race car'. You need to throw ass-loads of dollars at them.

The point that I've been repeatedly trying to make is that Toyota North America/Scion doesn't give two shits about producing a real performance car. They rely on these fantasy Scions, NASCAR Camrys and marketing campaigns.

This wasn't the case in the olden days of Toyota sports cars like the MR2, All-Trac/GT4 Celica, and Supra Turbos.

Scion and Toyota North America's marketing departments can lick my balls. Then they can step aside and let the engineers back in charge of performance.

What part of PTuning not getting $1 of Scion's money did you miss? Yet they are still 2008 and 2009 Modified Class FWD champs. If you are going to make a comment, please pay attention to what's posted.

And I posted the comment about motorswaps because I run into countless UNinformed people who look at Tanner Foust V8 swapped tC and think that the tC can only be fast if it's got a V8 in it. How ridiculous. And also, you comment as if there are countless 4banger motors out there that can make 1000+whp as long as you build them..wrong. You have to take into account of displacement, cooling, thresholds for the block...etc. Especially 4bangers making 1000+whp on the stock sleeves.

Can you readily purchase a BMW F1 engine in a factory car off the show room floor....No, thus making your post irrelevant by bringing up a Purpose built motor. Built motors are built motors in production cars. Not every built motor is going to be able to achieve the same as another....SIMPLY based on the facts that they are built. This is the real world.

What if I used my OWN Scion tC as an example, would that suffice....Highly doubt it. I can post up my own vids if you like.