Scion FT-86 FR-S

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

The 7M requires properly torqued head bolts and that's about it.

Correct. But a MHG doesn't hurt, and the cars are old enough that they're usually due for a HG change anyways so may as well upgrade. Another buddy's car is making over 500 to the wheels for over 3 hard driven years, on a 7M whose only mod to its internals was the MHG.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by oneday

And, because the probability of Toyota having to do a similar post-production dilution of a product is staggeringly low.

You're almost there, Oneday. Just a few small steps...

The probability of Toyota doing a pre-production dilution of a product that they may end up marketing towards impressionable, young Scion wannabe drifters is high.

Starting to see where I'm coming from?

Originally Posted by oneday

Wow, again, I never said that the drift tC was close to the same as a stock tC, nor disputed that the STI is closer to the showroom version, just that the STI is not nearly as "pure" as Dimman was trying to make it out to be.

Subaru allows the enthusiast buyer to purchase a vehicle with the same fundamentals as the top level racing cars. This buyer can start at the grassroots level such as rally-cross with a completely stock car. As this enthusiast's skill set and budget increase, he can progress through events and gradual mods and eventually (theoretically) end up at the same level as Pastrana.

This is not the case with Scion. Period.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Subaru allows the enthusiast buyer to purchase a vehicle with the same fundamentals as the top level racing cars....This is not the case with Scion. Period.

Bringing this thread back from a nap...to stir the pot once more and to point out that Scion won the manufacturer's battle with a tC (over RX-8s, GTIs, Civic Sis, IS300s and TSXs) in the SCCA Pro Racing World Challenge series Touring Car class. A tC driver also won rookie of the year and overall Touring Car championship.

not my image

World Challenge Touring Cars are very close to stock allowing for minimal upgrades, which does include a blue printed engine but maintains stock pick up-point suspension. SCCA Pro Racing WCTC Car Rules.

What do you know, Scion has a racing heritage afterall. Not that I think the bashers will let facts or reality cloud their hate, but they will need to look for a better argument than "Scion is fake."

In other news: Pastrana drove his close-to-stock Subaru through a tire barrier (right in front of me) last weekend...




Travis then quit the team...he'll be in NASCAR soon enough, possibly in a fake Camry.

[Dimman]

You have to remember that Toyota was giving these things out like Hallowe'en candy to support their performance/tuner image. They are heavily supported by the factory.

Still can't drift with it.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by oneday

Bringing this thread back from a nap...to stir the pot once more and to point out that Scion won the manufacturer's battle with a tC (over RX-8s, GTIs, Civic Sis, IS300s and TSXs) in the SCCA Pro Racing World Challenge series Touring Car class. A tC driver also won rookie of the year and overall Touring Car championship.

not my image

World Challenge Touring Cars are very close to stock allowing for minimal upgrades, which does include a blue printed engine but maintains stock pick up-point suspension. SCCA Pro Racing WCTC Car Rules.

What do you know, Scion has a racing heritage afterall. Not that I think the bashers will let facts or reality cloud their hate, but they will need to look for a better argument than "Scion is fake."

In other news: Pastrana drove his close-to-stock Subaru through a tire barrier (right in front of me) last weekend...




Travis then quit the team...he'll be in NASCAR soon enough, possibly in a fake Camry.

Good point... but question come along. How many tC you see rallying vs STI? Also add along current STI sedan (stock) has 7:55 rec in Nur, how's tC? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember seeing tC in the x-game.

[Matador]

Roflmao. Scion and racing heritage used in the same sentence. aaaaaaahhhhhhhahahahahahahahahaha

hahahahahahhahahaha






















ahahahahhahahhahahahahahahahahah

[Siriusly.Andrew]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Roflmao. Scion and racing heritage used in the same sentence. aaaaaaahhhhhhhahahahahahahahahaha

hahahahahahhahahaha

















ahahahahhahahhahahahahahahahahah

[70NYD]

Originally Posted by oneday

blah blah blah yet more trolling..

wanna talk about facts?
ok lets talk about facts
FACT - you won a tC
FACT - you do not deem it worthy enough to race it around a track *see attached quote from pg11 of this thread
FACT - your judgment and opinion is therefore clouded and biast to such a degree that you ACTUALLY DARE to compare that white good tC with a STI...

Originally Posted by oneday - 10-27-2010, 03:16 (AUSTRALIAN EASTERN STANDARD TIME)

And, just to clear up what my affinity for and affiliation with Scion is about: It is simply out of convenience. I own a tC as an appliance to commute and travel with. I do not love it. I do not hate it. It does what it is supposed to do and it does it well. The tC is not my only car. The tC is not my track car or one of the cars I race with

and i took this quote out since i have a feeling that the toll that you are might actually go back and delete the evidence

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Roflmao. Scion and racing heritage used in the same sentence. aaaaaaahhhhhhhahahahahahahahahaha

hahahahahahhahahaha






















ahahahahhahahhahahahahahahahahah

[Sleeperz]

Scion gets the 2 Door FT-86 and Toyota gets the 4 Door FT-86.

[Mouse]

http://www.world-challenge.com/series.php?page=carfacts

Read the facts..."Engines may be blueprinted and balanced. Full-prep engines may replace reciprocating internals. Custom intake manifolds may be allowed if deemed necessary. Engine management systems are free. Ignition system components may be replaced. Must maintain an operational on-board starter."

I wouldn't qualify one successful season as "Racing Heritage".

[oneday]

Troll? Because I can, and do, state and defend my posts? Because I don't agree with you and I call you out on your bigotry and false logic? I wouldn't delete or edit a single post I've made--especially when it's been quoted to try and disprove/reinterpret something I've said (and not very well, I might add--but more on that in a minute). I've brought logical arguments to the table and will debate these points with anyone that wants to discuss them.

Originally Posted by Dimman

You have to remember that Toyota was giving these things out like Hallowe'en candy to support their performance/tuner image. They are heavily supported by the factory.

Still can't drift with it.

Yes, Scion is supporting Dan Gardner Racing and two other Scion teams in the series, similar to how Subaru supports Vermont SportsCar. Maybe Toyota wants Scion to build the ground work needed to develop a racing heritage of it's own--which some feel people here is a prerequisite for having a RWD car. Honda races under the Acura brand in the US (in the same series as DGR's tC), how is that so different?

Mazda doesn't get to claim that "

program (it's really not hard to get, and that's the point).

Nope still can't drift with it, but DGR can road race with it, which is a much better achievement in my book.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

How many tC you see rallying vs STI? Also add along current STI sedan (stock) has 7:55 rec in Nur, how's tC? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember seeing tC in the x-game.

I know you are late to this debate, but it was not said or implied that the tC was appropriate for X-Games or rally cross (though there were two Miatas running last weekend and doing pretty good and a Civic Si and a Mazda3 made it to the 2WD A-Main). I can turn your argument around and say, "but you don't see any STIs in NASCAR, do you?" Not really the right car for the series, is it? Within the SCCA Pro WC series the DGR tC is in a different class than the STI because the STI has more horsepower, a different drivetrain and is generally a higher performance car.

I've never said the STI was not faster than the tC. The STI is an all around better performance car out of the box. Unfortunately your points lack pointiness.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Roflmao. Scion and racing heritage used in the same sentence

As I've said before, you can't have a racing heritage if you don't race. Scion is getting their cars into races. And winning with them. Say what you want but Scion has to start somewhere--they obviously missed the mark with the drift scene, so maybe they are working on correcting that? I'm sure some fan boy scoffed at Citroen building a car for WRC in the 90s [I am in no way implying that I think Scion or the tC could be as prolific at winning any given racing championships as the Citroen team has been in the WRC...but it could theoretically happen].

Now, on to the fun one.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

wanna talk about facts?

Sure. Hit me with your facts.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

ok lets talk about facts
FACT - you won a tC

Awesome! Where can I pick it up? This is so cool! Oh, my god I've never won a car before! Wait, is this like one of those joke lottery tickets where it says in fine print on the back that I can claim my car from the tooth fairy? I mean, really, that's just mean...telling a guy he won a car and then not following through? Man, and I was going to donate it to charity and help starving kids. Oh, well, it was only a tC, probably a leftover and an automatic, and not something really cool anyway.

FACT - When entering a discussion with the subject being a "talk about facts" it is important that you actually state facts.

Despite you already having lost this fact-based debate I still want to reply to the next fun-filled "FACT" you threw out there.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

FACT - you do not deem it worthy enough to race it around a track *see attached quote from pg11 of this thread.

Correct. Wait, are we talking about the tC you just told me I won in the previous "FACT?" Because I would definitely turn a free car into a track car; that is a FACT. I do not deem the Scion tC that I paid for and daily drive worthy to take on the track--mostly for fear of wadding it up and not having a daily driver. That is why I bought and track the Miata--can't beat it for $4500.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

FACT - your judgment and opinion is therefore clouded and biast to such a degree that you ACTUALLY DARE to compare that white good tC with a STI...

Ok, wow, you went off the deep-end there with that logic leap..and I am really confused by how color came into the equation. How does the my ownership of a tC and my not racing my tC impair my judgment?

Let's look at this differently: Bill (he's fictitious, just like that tC you said I won) just put a down payment on an Audi A4 that he will use strictly as an appliance to go to work and get groceries with. Bill also owns an Porsche, it's paid for and race-prepped. Bill does not race his A4, instead he races his Porsche--it is, after all, a better platform, is already race prepped and paid for. By your argument, because Bill does not race his A4, but instead races his Porsche, Bill's is biased and his judgment about A4s is clouded and he should not be allowed to compare the similarities, differences or merits of an Audi A4 or DTM Audi A4 to any other race or street car? [sarcasm]Suuurrre.[/sarcasm]

I've said so many times it's become a bit of a meme: I am as unbiased as one can get on the "should the new FT-86 be a Scion or a Toyota" issue--you and Matador and Dimman have a strong, biased hatred for Scion cars and their owners and have stated/shown that time and again. Badge it as a flippin' "70NYD" (now that is a badge I would change), just so long as it comes out and is at least mostly like the concept.

I'll quote myself, "I do not love [the tC], I do not hate [the tC]." If the tC was a complete piece of garbage, I would proclaim so from on high and support your statements that Scion sucks. But the FACT is Scion has very well built, reliable cars that do what they were designed to do very well. Some Scion models might also be competitive in certain racing series, given enough development.

I entered this thread to try and root out the reasons that you all harbor so much animosity towards Toyota for potentially branding this exciting new car as a Scion. Clearly I am not getting any reasonable, rational or logical arguments back from most people here, so I will leave you to your myopic world and I will continue to enjoy my life--that is not to say I will not stay active on this forum or within this thread, but I will certainly not read or care about what you write.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by oneday

I know you are late to this debate, but it was not said or implied that the tC was appropriate for X-Games or rally cross (though there were two Miatas running last weekend and doing pretty good and a Civic Si and a Mazda3 made it to the 2WD A-Main). I can turn your argument around and say, "but you don't see any STIs in NASCAR, do you?" Not really the right car for the series, is it? Within the SCCA Pro WC series the DGR tC is in a different class than the STI because the STI has more horsepower, a different drivetrain and is generally a higher performance car.

I've never said the STI was not faster than the tC. The STI is an all around better performance car out of the box. Unfortunately your points lack pointiness.

Is there a late and early in the debates? Can leave or come anytime in online thread, thank you.

Yes, you're right that Subaru isn't in the NASCAR. I'm no NASCAR expert or anything, but how's Nissan doing in NASCAR? Oh wait, THEY'RE NOT IN THERE! How about Mazda? Honda? iirc Toyota finally got in there lil while back (and they're doing great). I think you chose wrong example there. Subaru/STI is in JGTC, WRC (was), TA, Auto-X, Drift, I would say almost all the area of racing (except F1 & NASCAR). What I meant to say is, while you are praising tC blah blah blah, the fact still remain tC is limited to certain area of racing other hand STI is all over the racing world (almost all).

Is that good enough point for ya or is that still a pointless? Oh wait, debating about tC itself is pointless... never mind, keep going w your debate.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by oneday

Yes, Scion is supporting Dan Gardner Racing and two other Scion teams in the series, similar to how Subaru supports Vermont SportsCar. Maybe Toyota wants Scion to build the ground work needed to develop a racing heritage of it's own--which some feel people here is a prerequisite for having a RWD car. Honda races under the Acura brand in the US (in the same series as DGR's tC), how is that so different?

Mazda doesn't get to claim that "

program (it's really not hard to get, and that's the point).

One of the differences is that Honda's recent push into lower-level racing with Acura is not the reason teams like Realtime are using Acuras. Realtime started back in the day because the Integra and NSX were excellent starting platforms. I'm sure they received a bit of funding but nowhere near what Scion/Toyota is throwing around. They even were making and selling their own parts to support their racing (Comptech).

As for the Mazda claim. Two words: Spec Miata. Genuinely grassroots, still factory support for the series but not for individual teams. But again an excellent starting platform, that doesn't need tons of money thrown at it to not suck.

This is my issue with what Toyota's doing. It is doubtful that any team would have chosen a tC platform without all of the factory support that came with the marketing push. Instead of starting with a good car for the Scion racing campaign, they took what is basically a more styled version of the typical Toyota driving appliance and threw a ton of racing money at the racing versions to make them competitive.

As well as a full-race production-based tC may do on the track, it is much further from its stock version's handling and performance traits than for example a TSX or RX-8.

If that's going to change with the FT/R-86/S as a Scion, so be it.

But I do not have faith in what Toyota North America/Scion's management may want to do with this car. They are discovering that they do not need to sell a real performance car to have a performance image.

(Also shown by Toyota's NASCAR experience.)


PS: He's not a Troll, guys. He's a tC owner that's all...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Mouse

http://www.world-challenge.com/series.php?page=carfacts

Read the facts..."Engines may be blueprinted and balanced. Full-prep engines may replace reciprocating internals. Custom intake manifolds may be allowed if deemed necessary. Engine management systems are free. Ignition system components may be replaced. Must maintain an operational on-board starter."

I wouldn't qualify one successful season as "Racing Heritage".

Is this the current version of the old Speedvision Challenge? If that's the case then they make a lot of effort for parity. And cars that start from a bigger performance hole are allowed more extreme mods.