SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

And one more - here is my take on how the competitiveness of the package will shake out. This is a total SWAG based on PAX - yes, I know - feel free to disregard as you see fit.

Based on 2014 nationals throwing out the 370's and Fenter, the 86 folks (Sean, John H, and Quinonez) were about 1% off the top RX-8's.

The 2015 pax numbers are:
CS 0.814
BS 0.826
STX 0.831

normalizing those to CS:
CS twin 99.0%
CS 100.0%
BS 101.5%
STX 102.1%

So, here's the big WAG - how close do the TRD parts get you to 'full STX' performance? Keep in mind - no torque improvement, no redline improvement, no lightweighting, and probably same tire on 2" narrower wheel.

Do they get you 1/3 of the way to STX? (~100% on normalized scale) - I can buy this and now the FRS is a great CS car.
Do they get you 1/2 of the way to STX? (~100.6% on normalized scale) - I doubt this, but if so, the FRS is an overdog in CS or a poor BS car.
Do they get you 2/3 of the way to STX? (~101% on normalized scale) - I REALLY doubt this, but if so, the FRS is a decent BS car.

Good data-driven approach, but where did you get 99% from? That's quite a gap for a car that is 2 for 2 in champ tour wins so far.

[jdrxb9]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Good data-driven approach, but where did you get 99% from? That's quite a gap for a car that is 2 for 2 in champ tour wins so far.

FWIW:

	2014 nats			
	fenter			60.654	64.980	125.634
	mccelvey		60.878	65.829	126.707
	andy			62.194	65.465	127.659
	grogan			61.563	66.119	127.682
	quinonez		61.550	66.291	127.841
	hale			62.073	65.874	127.947
				
	quinonez/mccelvey	98.91%		
	hale/andy			99.30%	
	grogan/mccelvey				99.24%

[jdrxb9]

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

FWIW:

	2014 nats			
	fenter			60.654	64.980	125.634
	mccelvey		60.878	65.829	126.707
	andy			62.194	65.465	127.659
	grogan			61.563	66.119	127.682
	quinonez		61.550	66.291	127.841
	hale			62.073	65.874	127.947
				
	quinonez/mccelvey	98.91%		
	hale/andy			99.30%	
	grogan/mccelvey				99.24%

If you want to say Fenter is not an 'alien':

quinonez/fenter		98.54%		
hale/fenter			98.64%	
grogan/fenter				98.40%

[SeanRTR]

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

FWIW:

    2014 nats            
    fenter            60.654    64.980    125.634
    mccelvey        60.878    65.829    126.707
    andy            62.194    65.465    127.659
    grogan            61.563    66.119    127.682
    quinonez        61.550    66.291    127.841
    hale            62.073    65.874    127.947
                
    quinonez/mccelvey    98.91%        
    hale/andy            99.30%    
    grogan/mccelvey                99.24%

Argh, .023 from Mark Andy, I can never seem to beat this guy.


Interesting approach to the data. 1% improvement in time is essentially 6 tenths on a 60 second course, I can see springs/bars maybe giving this much of an advantage, but definitely no more than this. Remember these springs are no where near as stiff as some of the rates you'd see in STX.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by Arigh

What really blows my mind about this is that it likely won't make enough of a difference to most people to matter, but on a national scale it could be enough of an edge to propel someone to a higher place than they otherwise would be able to get.

I don't understand that mindset, though. It's an attempt to upset the previous parity between the two cars. What's the point? So someone can get their rocks off by winning at any cost?

Bringing a gun to a knife fight doesn't make you a better knife fighter, it just makes you an asshole.

I understand, and also agree with, the idea of trying to keep things reasonably fair in terms of competitiveness; particularly in grassroots motorsports.

Then again look at F1 or any other professional motorsports series, they are rife with trying to squeeze every little bit of performance you can get out of the cars within the "legal" confines of the rules. Taking advantage of temporary loopholes and vaguely defined terms within rules is practically a pillar of motorsports.

http://jalopnik.com/the-ten-most-ing...ver-1465111260

http://jalopnik.com/5977371/racing-i...nce-armstrongs

Granted, I know there are some actual assholes who are boisterous about their "cheating" and take it too far. I just don't see using the TRD parts as blatant cheating.

Sure you could come up with a gentleman's agreement, but that is unlikely to ever work. If you want a completely even playing field then a Spec series is going to be as close as you will get, but there will still be this sort of rule bending there too.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

digging through corporate paperwork, getting multiple departments to confirm to a hypothesis, overcoming bureaucratic road blocks, all to procure proof that something meant for one car is technically a factory option on other cars, even though they never actually came with the stuff...


yeah, not weaseling at all, just another day at the office, nothing to see here.

Its a fact that the parts were offered as PPOs.
The type of documentation needed to document the legality for 2013/14 models was the only thing that needed extra "digging".

The better term is investigation. Why is such investigation required? Because SCCA rules say the competitor needs to provide their own documented proof.

I can understand if you do not like the fact of their legality. I do not understand how the act of requesting information from a manufacturer to just provide documentation on their own internal historical facts can be classified as a negative.

Do you hold the same negative regard toward investigative journalists, historians, archeologists, or private detectives?

Are you negative because it may force you to make decisions that will effect your competitiveness? If so, you need either a new class or quite competition. This is the nature of competitive Street. There will always be a new car or new shiny part (infinite adjustment sway bar or 4-way adjustable shocks) that can upset your world.

[tahdizzle]

This season I'm running STX. Honestly, last season (and this season) I am not good enough to say that adding suspension components made me faster.

Right now, more seat time is making me faster. Really feel bad for my car. I'm making her look bad.

But I am against this for the people who are good enough where these modifications would make a difference.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Do you hold the same negative regard toward investigative journalists, historians, archeologists, or private detectives?

how could you possibly compare the efforts of industry professionals to uncover the truth for the betterment of all mankind to the rather niche area of car prep for personal gains.

and this-is-for personal gains! Those of you that decided to dig this deep to prove that TRD parts are legal have only created a brief window of advantage for yourself and anyone else quick enough to follow through. This will bound to be shut down in one way or another.

The immediate result of these findings is that a few choice competitors are going to show up at the next big event lowered and on stiffer springs in a car that's been untouched for the last 3 years, with paper in hand saying it's okay.

We don't even know Toyota's intent. It could have been a simple clerical omission. Honestly, who up in Toyota HQ seriously considered the ramifications of this. Outside of SCCA Autocross it's ludicrous to even consider this something worth knowing about, let alone researching.

I bet the Toyota exec who helped you guys was just bored out of his ass and was glad that something of interest landed on his desk.

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Are you negative because it may force you to make decisions that will effect your competitiveness? If so, you need either a new class or quite competition. This is the nature of competitive Street. There will always be a new car or new shiny part (infinite adjustment sway bar or 4-way adjustable shocks) that can upset your world.

Thank you for the condescending words, but no, I'm not negative because it might affect my competitiveness (the only thing that affects my competitiveness is if Sean decides to attend more Ontario events).


In fact, if the end result is a net positive for us, i'll gladly bite the forbidden fruit.

But that's irrelevant. My negativity stems from the general way this whole thing unfolded, rather than the end result. The desperation to claw at any advantage you get, it's not pretty. It's something I would have never ever bothered to think about, let alone follow through with the investigations. I'm busy as it is saving up for high-end dampers .

[renfield90]

"I am not designed to come in second or third place. I am designed to win." - Senna

And with that, I'm leaving work for the day to install my springs. Cheers.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

how could you possibly compare the efforts of industry professionals to uncover the truth for the betterment of all mankind to the rather niche area of car prep for personal gains.

and this-is-for personal gains!

So because someone is an industry professional it is ok, then?
That is your line in the sand, huh?

There is no personal gain here. That is your own imagination and most likely you are just projecting. If the motive was personal gain, there would be far better gains to be had.

What you are doing is blaming the messenger and pouting.

Accept the new reality and just deal with it.

[tahdizzle]

So I read this "letter". No where in the letter does it say that the TRD suspension is a Port installed item on a Non-RS FR-S.

This is what it does say: These high-quality parts have been available to scion customers beginning with the introduction to the 2013 FR_S as both Post-Production Options and as Dealer-Installed Options, with that availability continuing for the Model Year 2014 and 2015.

We all know you could buy the TRD intake, Springs, Sways, Brake Pads ETC for a while.

Now that the RS has them as Port installed options, of course the wording of that letter has changed.

I think all you guys are taking that letter a bit too liberally. Go ahead and install your parts. And be ready for the frowny face.

[SeanRTR]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

(the only thing that affects my competitiveness is if Sean decides to attend more Ontario events).

Is there a schedule up for when the big course at Centralia will be run?


Between RallyX in the MR2, Road racing in the Neon, and national Solo in the (TRD cheater parts equipped?) FRS, my schedule is quite tight.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

So because someone is an industry professional it is ok, then?.

thanks for cutting out the 2nd part of that sentence

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

There is no personal gain here. That is your own imagination and most likely you are just projecting. If the motive was personal gain, there would be far better gains to be had.

so figuring out a way to improve a car after having it on the market for 3 years isn't a gain? Praytell then how do you see it? A comical musing?

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Accept the new reality and just deal with it

Sir Yes Sir! New reality accepted! Done and dealt with.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by SeanRTR

Is there a schedule up for when the big course at Centralia will be run?

unfortunately, only one day is scheduled at Centralia for our Regional series, it will be on July 26th


However, the club (WOSCA) that runs on that airstrip has their preliminary schedule up, http://wosca.ca/events/ , the competition wont be as fierce but the layouts, I'm sure, will be nice.


the other airport track we use, is at Picton, and we will have 3 events there this year. Buuutt that's probably even further for you!