Brakes, Brakes, and more Brakes

[sav]

Originally Posted by Fish Eagle

Most of the work is jacking the car up, taking the wheel off, and putting the wheel back on.
Changing the actual pads is a cinch.

But you do need some strength to push the pistons back when fitting new pads (or a big tool)

Exactly, always annoying when getting to the part you're working on is a bigger job than the "actual" job.

[FT_86_SM_GP]

Originally Posted by Fish Eagle

After having said that my brake fluid's still OK in my previous post in December (above), and after another 3 track days since then, I've decided that it's time for a change because it's started feeling quite spongy.

Previously I've used Endless RF650, but I found some Motul RBF660 in Nelspruit at less than half the price of Endless and the specs look very similar, so I'm going to give it a try.

Claimed boiling point 325°C dry, 205°C wet vs Endless RF650 which claims 323°C dry, and 218°C wet.

Anyone got experience with this product?

Great feedback and useful information @Fish Eagle

What was your take on the Endless brake Fluid Vs Motul?

Did your stock pads get cooked quicker with the Motul? Did you feel any significant differences on track days?

Thanks

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

Great feedback and useful information @Fish Eagle

What was your take on the Endless brake Fluid Vs Motul?

Did your stock pads get cooked quicker with the Motul? Did you feel any significant differences on track days?

Thanks

The Motul fluid seems OK, and being 40% of the price, that actually means great

I say "seems" because my first track day with Motul was 100%. Sunday was my second day and I had a bit of spongy pedal feel near the end of the day, but not enough to get me worried. Probably caused by my front pads being poked. I'm going to give my brakes a light bleeding, and then see how it feels with new pads. I'll have to wait until the next time I'm on track cause there's no way you can create those levels of brake stress and heat on public roads. I'll let you know, but I think it'll be fine.

BTW, I don't have stock pads, and I don't think fluid has anything to do with pad life.

[FT_86_SM_GP]

Cool! Sorry didn't read the previous comments properly, you are running Endless Pads.

Are they expensive to replace? Average pricing?

I am assuming you are placing the front only?

Do you still have stock rear (Standard) break discs and pads?

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

Cool! Sorry didn't read the previous comments properly, you are running Endless Pads.

Are they expensive to replace? Average pricing?

I am assuming you are placing the front only?

Do you still have stock rear (Standard) break discs and pads?

Front - Endless MX72/PB05, approx R2500, last me 5-6 track days.
Rear - Bendix Ultimate, approx R1500, but stock pads are OK at the back, last me 7-8 track days.

I've ordered front and rear pads now, but the rears can do a few more track days before I change them.

Brake pads and tyres are the main consumables when you track your car, but it all depends how often you go on track, and how aggressive you are.
If you tootle around the track like an old lady, you're not going to wear out your tyres and pads, are you?

[Fish Eagle]

I took off my worn Powerbrake front discs today, and put my almost brand new stock discs back on.
I understand that there's very little difference and I'm curious to see how the stock discs perform after I'm used to aftermarket.

Here's some pics of the Powerbrake discs. They've lasted as well (or better) than I could expect. They've done 16 track days, approx 700 track laps. They've got lots of surface cracks which are normal, and they're showing about 1.2mm wear either side (the ruler is 16th of an inch). I think that's probably as much as they can take - but I'm going to check with Powerbrake. Maybe they've still got some life left in them...

I've also added a pic of a what a plastic hub-centric ring looks like after a few sessions of track temps - LOL.
Actually, the plastic rings work fine until you try to take them off, then they disintegrate.

[FT_86_SM_GP]

Would appreciate your guys advice on this.

I called Powerbrakes PTA today,

They said they are out of stock of Drilled and slotted brake disc's for the 86 until the end of August 2015,

They have Endless pads (For front pair) available for approx R2700, and Motul RBF660 for approx R500 a Litre,

What is your opinion on the following: (For mild use on Track)

1. Having stock brake pads and discs + with upgraded brake fluid (Motul)
(Approx R500)

2. Having stock brake discs + Endless Pads(Front only) + Motul RBF660
(Approx R3300)

Obviously option 2 will be better, but does the price difference justify the improved braking by having Endless pads + Stock discs combo.

Ie. Are aftermarket pads on Stock Discs effective?

Also another question, how many Liters of Brake fluid do you need to change your stock brake fluid?

I was also given "Safety Brake and Clutch" details in Edenvale to get pads and brake fluid changed, anyone dealt with them or have a trusted service center?

Or does everyone here change their pads and fluid on their own :-)

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

Would appreciate your guys advice on this.

I called Powerbrakes PTA today,

They said they are out of stock of Drilled and slotted brake disc's for the 86 until the end of August 2015,

They have Endless pads (For front pair) available for approx R2700, and Motul RBF660 for approx R500 a Litre,

What is your opinion on the following: (For mild use on Track)

1. Having stock brake pads and discs + with upgraded brake fluid (Motul)
(Approx R500)

2. Having stock brake discs + Endless Pads(Front only) + Motul RBF660
(Approx R3300)

Obviously option 2 will be better, but does the price difference justify the improved braking by having Endless pads + Stock discs combo.

Ie. Are aftermarket pads on Stock Discs effective?

Also another question, how many Liters of Brake fluid do you need to change your stock brake fluid?

I was also given "Safety Brake and Clutch" details in Edenvale to get pads and brake fluid changed, anyone dealt with them or have a trusted service center?

Or does everyone here change their pads and fluid on their own :-)

From the top down, here's my opinions - hope they help.

Stay away from drilled discs - they crack between the holes.

Slotted discs are better than stock but not that much better that you should drop the $$$ until you know you'll be tracking on a regular basis.
My slotted discs are worn out, so I'm currently on stock discs for a while again, and they're OK.
I'll be on stock discs on the 25th and 26th (I'm competing in the Michelin Cup at RSR on Sunday).

Yes, aftermarket pads on stock discs are effective, but...

Go for option 1 and just change your fluid for now. Motul 660 is good.
You might get it a bit cheaper at a motorbike shop though.
My local (Nelspruit) motorbike shop has it at R220/500ml.
If your techie doesn't waste fluid, you can do a change with 1 litre.

The PB aftermarket pads are good. I assume they quoted you for MX72/PB05 pads.
If you decide to track your car on a regular basis then it's a must have.
But you don't need them yet.

Just try to avoid using your ABS to much.
It's 100% OK to brake hard enough to make the ABS kick in, but learn from that and then try to contain your braking to just before it kicks in. Excessive ABS use will hammer your stock pads badly.

Also, be aware of pad fade.
If you start getting a spongy pedal or they just don't seem to be working properly, then go off the track, and let them cool down.
There are restrictions with stock pads, but you'll still be able to have a lot of fun without a problem or risk.
Just be alert to the warning signs.
Pad fade is progressive and gives you warning whereas cooking brake fluid is sudden and takes you by surprise.
Motul 660 won't cook, no matter how violent you are.

I change my own pads, but I get my tame tech to change my fluid.
One day I'll learn to do it myself.
Actually, I know how, I'm just too lazy and it's a k*k job

[Fish Eagle]

If it's going to be your first outing on track, here's some excellent reading.

Read posts 1 to 4 and stop.
Ignore all the waffle after that.
A lot is drivel posted by idiots.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25485

[Ryan86]

For those wanting brake upgrades, Vari Racing is now supplying upgrade kits and BBK kits for the 86 platform.

[Ryan86]

Andy get yourself some Aluminum hub centric rings.

[FT_86_SM_GP]

Originally Posted by Ryan86

For those wanting brake upgrades, Vari Racing is now supplying upgrade kits and BBK kits for the 86 platform.

That looks like brake porn lol

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by Ryan86

Andy get yourself some Aluminum hub centric rings.

Yep, I should do so, but I've still got a bag full of plastic rings and they're fine until you try to remove them.
Not an important part so I'm not fussed either way

[Dammod]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

Would appreciate your guys advice on this.

I called Powerbrakes PTA today,

They said they are out of stock of Drilled and slotted brake disc's for the 86 until the end of August 2015,

They have Endless pads (For front pair) available for approx R2700, and Motul RBF660 for approx R500 a Litre,

What is your opinion on the following: (For mild use on Track)

1. Having stock brake pads and discs + with upgraded brake fluid (Motul)
(Approx R500)

2. Having stock brake discs + Endless Pads(Front only) + Motul RBF660
(Approx R3300)

Obviously option 2 will be better, but does the price difference justify the improved braking by having Endless pads + Stock discs combo.

Ie. Are aftermarket pads on Stock Discs effective?

Also another question, how many Liters of Brake fluid do you need to change your stock brake fluid?

I was also given "Safety Brake and Clutch" details in Edenvale to get pads and brake fluid changed, anyone dealt with them or have a trusted service center?

Or does everyone here change their pads and fluid on their own :-)

I'll throw my 2c in as well if thats ok...

Assuming we are talking about an N/A GT86:
I feel the 100% stock setup if great for the odd track day. This is my experience from my previous (heavier) Impreza as well as my BRZ and it comes down to two main points:

1. Brake later and harder once you are comfortable doing so: I find that a lot of people new to trackdays tend to brake faaaar too early and for longer periods of time as apposed to the more seasoned trackday enthusiast braking later and harder and for much shorter periods of time.
Shorter, harder braking is MUCH easier on your brakes then loooong drawn-out braking.

2. Dont do too many hotlaps: I cant give you an exact number for all tracks but I can use Killarney as an example.
My typical routine at Killarney would be one or two warm-up laps, followed by 3-4 hot-laps, a cool-down lap, 3 hot-laps again, then two cool-down and pit.
Banging out hot-lap after hot-lap KILLS brakes, especially if you are braking for extended periods of time as mentioned in point one.
My definition on a "cool-down" lap is doing a slow lap without or barely touching the brakes.

I was doing WRX laptimes with my N/A Impreza on 100% stock brakes, sticking to the above mentioned routine and I think I got slight brake fade once and that was because on one of my cool-down laps I decided to start "racing" someone again...

I'm not saying DONT upgrade your brakes, by all means, do it, it WILL be better then stock if done properly, but don't be scared to hit the track with stock brakes, just DONT do too many hotlaps and remember to let them cool down properly before pitting.

This is my experience.

Take it easy, dont "race" anyone, stay within your own limits and have FUN!