FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[Sellout]

The reason some people might notice a benefit with the A/C on is that the fans cycle on more often with the A/C on. You turn on the A/C and the fans cycle on to control the condensing pressure (head pressure) in the A/C system, regardless of what the coolant temp is. Yes that air will be warmer than ambient, especially when you first turn it on and the interior is hot, but it's still quite a bit cooler than the ~200° coolant and the fans are going to keep running to keep the head pressure down even after the coolant temp comes back down.

More load on the engine, warmer air through the radiator and more of it. It all probably amounts to nothing but a cooler driver. Some might see slightly warmer oil temps doing this, some might see slightly cooler. You'd have to test to see what happens with your car, I'm just pointing out that there's more to it than hotter air to the radiator.

[dave-]

Originally Posted by Dipstik-sportech

Both fans kick on regardless if the ac is on when the engine reaches a certain temp anyways. Turing the ac on then heats up the condensor which it next to the rad causing the fans to draw warmer than ambient air across the rad not ideal.

Yes I'm aware of that, if my memory is correct the fans kick in somewhere near 100degC coolant temp.

But after doing a 10-15min track session, I like to let both oil and coolant come back down to normal temps, aka ~90degC before shutting it off. You're only doing that by cruising around for ages or leaving the car stationary with the AC on which will force the fans on and thus keep air moving through both the radiator and oil cooler cores.

Its my opinion/experience, right or wrong. We've probably strayed too far from the OP so I'll leave it at that.

[Element Tuning]

Ok so we all know two fans on flows more air than one. At speed the fans are just in the way and don't help which is why many race cars don't have a fan (our STI didn't when radiator was in front). Now if just doing a cool down lap or idling in the pits I can't say it isn't plausible but running the AC makes the condenser extremely hot and you're sucking that hot air through the radiator.

With the Hydra EMS we take control over the fans so I typically set the second fan to come at 92C regardless of AC operation so you can get the benefit of the second fan without the downside of the hot AC condenser or increased motor drag from the compressor.

The key really with these engines is to have an exceptional cooling system for the coolant and oil. I run a massive (for the FRS) radiator and one super high CFM fan on 1/2 the radiator (other side open for flow). We run a very vented hood also to improve air movement through the radiator and then all the hot engine, radiator, and turbo heat. Even at 450 whp racing it's stays totally cool. A Perrin Oil Cooler kits rounds things out.

[Fricke]

Thought I could just as well ask you guys on element tuning, which seems to have done a lot of exploration in the oil Category.
It's like this, I'll will be runing the Time Attack for season 2015 and has been offered to drive with AGIP oils, at prices I can not refuse
have ben driving with Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W30 for 2014 and thought that worked really well, but which oil from Agip do you think would be a good fit for an N / A Toyota GT86 whit Perrin oil cooler.
And which oil from Agip would you go for on the gearbox and diff.

All this if you could choose freely from AGIP catalog

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Fricke

Thought I could just as well ask you guys on element tuning, which seems to have done a lot of exploration in the oil Category.
It's like this, I'll will be runing the Time Attack for season 2015 and has been offered to drive with AGIP oils, at prices I can not refuse
have ben driving with Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W30 for 2014 and thought that worked really well, but which oil from Agip do you think would be a good fit for an N / A Toyota GT86 whit Perrin oil cooler.
And which oil from Agip would you go for on the gearbox and diff.

All this if you could choose freely from AGIP catalog

I don't know their oils at all unfortunately but I would use your data from the Mobil to help. If you had enough oil pressure NA with 5w30 you can stick with it or step up a little to 10w30. Not all oils stay in grade at high temps as others so you may need to tweak what you run.

As for the gearbox we are in survival mode so we run a mix of Red Line Lightweight shockproof and MT90 along with antransmission cooler. Gearbox fluids are something I rarely experiment with as I haven't found anything to hold up better than "shockproof." Even other high end oils like Motul break down in as little as 1 race and shifting becomes difficult. In NA however you're just not stressing the box much so a lighter oil cold keep thing cooler and have less drag.

[Fricke]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I don't know their oils at all unfortunately but I would use your data from the Mobil to help. If you had enough oil pressure NA with 5w30 you can stick with it or step up a little to 10w30. Not all oils stay in grade at high temps as others so you may need to tweak what you run.

As for the gearbox we are in survival mode so we run a mix of Red Line Lightweight shockproof and MT90 along with antransmission cooler. Gearbox fluids are something I rarely experiment with as I haven't found anything to hold up better than "shockproof." Even other high end oils like Motul break down in as little as 1 race and shifting becomes difficult. In NA however you're just not stressing the box much so a lighter oil cold keep thing cooler and have less drag.

Okej, do you think ther 5w40 oil is too mutch of gap in viscosity?
Whit 10W30 how much power can you expect to lose, if any
Also saw that they had a 15W40 racing oil, do not think I heard about any other brand that has that viscosity befor?

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Fricke

Okej, do you think ther 5w40 oil is too mutch of gap in viscosity?
Whit 10W30 how much power can you expect to lose, if any
Also saw that they had a 15W40 racing oil, do not think I heard about any other brand that has that viscosity befor?

These are very brand dependent questions. Often with something like a Red Line you can actually drop a viscosity grade compared to lesser oil when running at high oil temps.

If I were you I would go over to Bob Is The Oil Guy and see if you can find any white papers or independent tests for the AGIP oils. I asked our engine builder who is an oil geek and he hasn't heard anything great about it. Pretty much a Red Line, Amsoil, Motul engine oils and Red Line for the drivetrain kind of shop.

[Hector]

Originally Posted by Andreas83

I have considered upgrading the rods when I do the rebuild.
I had a quick look on the timing cover and oil pump on what could be ported.
The pump itself looks like it is good as is, but the channels to the oil filter and filter bracket has a lot of sharp edges that can be smoothed out a bit.
I will look in to the books you are suggesting.

I also found out that the cover for the oil ports to the filter was loose.
All the bolts where barely fingertight.
I had to use a impact screwdriver to remove the pump and the cover on the other side.
There are no gaskets for either the covers or pump, so oil could have escaped out here and pressure have dropped.

I just did not have that issue on my list.
As i recently swapped my GT86 for a new one because of various reasons,
i'm really curious about production changes. Some people got their timing covers changed, but i always thought these exchanges were always sensor related.
From first view, everything is cleaner sorted in my new engine bay.
Did you guys at Element Tuning mention any changes on engine internals, especially timing cover/ports/seal related?
I finally like to have a reliable working NA FA20.
My bolt ons will be an OEM Subaru water to oil cooler, a Cosworth low temperature thermostat and a higher weighted, maybe 10w30 oil.
I really like to push the car hard but also need it on a daily basis.

[D K]

Phil, have you logged how much time you spend below 35psi?

Trying to decide which accusump to go with. Options are 20psi or 35psi (to switch on)

D

[Guillaume]

Originally Posted by Dipstik-sportech

Both fans kick on regardless if the ac is on when the engine reaches a certain temp anyways. Turing the ac on then heats up the condensor which it next to the rad causing the fans to draw warmer than ambient air across the rad not ideal.

Indeed. If the water exceeds 100°C (from its normal 90°C). If you don't want the car to run that hot at low speed/complete stop, turning on the AC does help keeping both water and oil temps lower.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...76&postcount=5

[Wayno]

LOL @ having AC on just so the fans run. That's so inelegant.

Change the fan values in software takes all of 2min.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64731

Running fans won't make your oil cooler btw, at all.

[Guillaume]

Originally Posted by Wayno

Running fans won't make your oil cooler btw, at all.

It will. Even without oil cooler. Having an extra 10°C on your water will affect your oil temp. Don't trust me, trust your oil temp gauge. In effect, the A/C will keep your water below 100°C thanks to the 2ndary fan and thus keep the oil a tad cooler.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by D K

Phil, have you logged how much time you spend below 35psi?

Trying to decide which accusump to go with. Options are 20psi or 35psi (to switch on)

D

Well there is a big difference an Element ProComp motor runs vs another build due to the internal changes we make. You'll only ever be under 35 psi at idle but that's not how an accumulator works and normal base air pressure is set very low so the system can fill otherwise you'll be extremely over full with oil at idle and way under at load. Because our engines run consistently at 80+ psi we like to shut the accumulator at 80 psi and set the oil level which has worked well for us at the track. You'll still push a good amount into the catch tank under racing conditions so be aware and size accordingly or build a drain back.

I have been working on something new.







Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[D K]

I see you are running a manual valve.

They have a new setup thats pressure regulated.
For that, there are 3 different options.

Probably, I will choose the 35lbs one and go from there.

D



And yes, dry sump trumps all

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Well there is a big difference an Element ProComp motor runs vs another build due to the internal changes we make. You'll only ever be under 35 psi at idle but that's not how an accumulator works and normal base air pressure is set very low so the system can fill otherwise you'll be extremely over full with oil at idle and way under at load. Because our engines run consistently at 80+ psi we like to shut the accumulator at 80 psi and set the oil level which has worked well for us at the track. You'll still push a good amount into the catch tank under racing conditions so be aware and size accordingly or build a drain back.

I have been working on something new.







Thanks,
Phil Grabow