Why Innovate supercharger?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

My 2 cents - very much what you prefer and what you want to do with the car.

"Area under the curve" - how much time do you spend in your car 2k-5k vs 5k-7k?

Also the link you provided is not one of my favorites - not a very fair comparison between kits, some kits have cats, some kits don't, varying octane, varying environments for dynos, etc. Interesting comparison if you're just looking at the *shape* of the output curve, but for direct numbers comparison it's sorely lacking.

Well tuned and optimized innovate kits on 93 octane are right around the 290-300whp mark, with a flat torque curve to boot.

Well tuned centrifugal compressors will almost always produce higher peak numbers, but both systems when well tuned will push the limits of the stock clutch even on 93 octane, not to mention E85.

Also many people like the wicked twin screw whine associated with the Innovate (and some people prefer the subtle jet whistle of a centrifugal unit).

So the question is, how fast do you want to go? If you want ultimate speed, then stop talking about differences in price between kits, because you'll need to open up your wallet to other things to have properly done high hp system.

FWIW I think I read somewhere in this thread somebody talking about 'spooling' with centrifugal superchargers. There's no such thing - they *do* build boost in an exponential fashion relative to RPM, but there's no lag associated with a belt driven centrifugal supercharger. Bring RPMS up to 6000rpm, and then put your foot in it, and you'll get sharp and immediate response from any of the belt driven centrifugal systems. Turbochargers are another story - a well matched turbo on our modern high compression engines will be responsive compared to the turbo systems of 'yesteryear', but the throttle response will never match a supercharger (it will always feel 'softer' on tip in).

Here's the thing.

If you're at 2k-5k, you're not looking to go fast; if you want to go fast, you'll be in that 5k-7k range. When you floor it, the automatic downshifts, because there's more power up top, right?

So do you want a powerband where the power is when you don't really need it, or a powerband where the power is there only when you want it?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by FirestormFRS

Plains vs mountain peak

The analagy I use is 350Z vs S2000 type powerband... the Innovate powerband is remarkably close to a VQ35DE, whereas the centrifugals are close to a bolt-on F22C.

[malave7567]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Here's the thing.

If you're at 2k-5k, you're not looking to go fast; if you want to go fast, you'll be in that 5k-7k range. When you floor it, the automatic downshifts, because there's more power up top, right?

So do you want a powerband where the power is when you don't really need it, or a powerband where the power is there only when you want it?

There's plenty of DD guys here that would be happier with the 2-5k range, because they don't want to be screaming at 5k-7k just to get up to however fast traffic is going, or just want to be able to give it a bit more power without forcing the downshift. I understand this perfectly.

However, I would go centri, but like most have said in this thread, ultimately it is personal preference, and being happy with how you intend to use the car.

[R3NIK]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The analagy I use is 350Z vs S2000 type powerband... the Innovate powerband is remarkably close to a VQ35DE, whereas the centrifugals are close to a bolt-on F22C.

Having owned both, I found the 350Z (I had VQ35HR) to much more usable in daily driving. Sure, my AP2 was a blast on the track but it was the same as driving a 250 Ninja. You have to keep in that small 20% of the power band to have fun.
Hence my recent Sprintex order. Of course, nothing is a one fit for everyone.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Here's the thing.

If you're at 2k-5k, you're not looking to go fast; if you want to go fast, you'll be in that 5k-7k range. When you floor it, the automatic downshifts, because there's more power up top, right?

So do you want a powerband where the power is when you don't really need it, or a powerband where the power is there only when you want it?

Hah Mike - I have to say that's a pretty wobbly argument... you're saying that a flat torque curve on a street car is not desirable? Why do v8's, v10's and v12's exist? Why do all the major auto manufacturers design turbo systems that are optimized for wide flat torque curves instead of peak power? It's better in 90% of driving situations. It's certainly *fun* to downshift and wring out a peaky motor, but when I'm not being a hooligan I certainly prefer a motor that gives me power to pass without downshifting. Heck at the track in that tight hairpin, or at the local AutoX I'd prefer to stay in a higher gear if I can

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

Hah Mike - I have to say that's a pretty wobbly argument... you're saying that a flat torque curve on a street car is not desirable? Why do v8's, v10's and v12's exist? Why do all the major auto manufacturers design turbo systems that are optimized for wide flat torque curves instead of peak power? It's better in 90% of driving situations. It's certainly *fun* to downshift and wring out a peaky motor, but when I'm not being a hooligan I certainly prefer a motor that gives me power to pass without downshifting. Heck at the track in that tight hairpin, or at the local AutoX I'd prefer to stay in a higher gear if I can

Because at the end of the day, there is no replacement for displacement....

The wide, flat torque curves are actually manufacturers chasing emissions and MPG ratings, rather than "driveability", for the most part. I wouldn't call a EJ257 with a powerband of 4k-6k wide and flat Or a 4G63 in an Evo. Or the M133 in the CLA45 AMG.

I do agree, big flat powerbands are nice for street driving, but I don't think that's why most people decided to purchase a FRS/BRZ.

The big difference in driveability is not that the Innovate makes more power down low, but that the Innovate's throttle tip in is ultra aggressive. If you do a 20-80 3rd gear (MT) pull in a Vortech vs Innovate car, the Innovate never pulls more than about 3-4 feet before the Vortech starts reeling in the Innovate car.

Likewise, if you do a 20-80 pull in a VQ35DE 350Z vs AP2 S2000, the 350Z doesn't actually ever get more than about 5 feet ahead, before the S2k wizzes by.

In both cases, the Innovate and 350z *feel* subjectively much more powerful at low RPMs.

In my case, I'm never in the 1500-2500RPM range unless I'm strictly cruising; downshifting to accelerate comes naturally to me, and a 3 gear downshift isn't out of the ordinary when I'm driving.

Why do you prefer to not downshift for a pass street driving? Inconvenience? An Auto (or twin cluch in some other platforms) would fix that...

Different strokes for different folks.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by R3NIK

Having owned both, I found the 350Z (I had VQ35HR) to much more usable in daily driving. Sure, my AP2 was a blast on the track but it was the same as driving a 250 Ninja. You have to keep in that small 20% of the power band to have fun.
Hence my recent Sprintex order. Of course, nothing is a one fit for everyone.

The HR is a monster that keeps making power as the revs go up, whereas the DE/Revup falls on its face... the two are in completely different leagues. I also think the HR is a far, far superior engine to the VHR. The mechanical gearing on the HR is also ~15% more aggressive than the DE, which only adds to how good the HR feels...

A S2k with a HR would be a beast. Or a FRS with a HR....

[Dezoris]

I always took a dump on Innovate because it was import kit and knew long term support was not there. (Not a supercharger company) Not only that they were more evasive than most at answering any legit questions about their product.

Sprintex has been around but again it's an import kit, and that still factors in with cost and support.

But I can see why people love the twin screw it's great for the street, feels very strong. I just believe from a performance perspective the centrifugal blowers make more sense with how the power band works on this car. And as Mike said you want the power up top for track use.

[CSG Mike]

I should add.... I average around 50k miles a year of driving. Street driveability is important to me.

[Alltezza]

Well then! Thanks for the information.

Yeah some of you could say that if I wanted more horses and power then I bought the wrong car
The reason why I was asking, was mainly because I looked at it this way.

If you're going FI route, one of the biggest reasons someone would do it is because to get more power. So that's why I was thinking if youre going to spend 4K on a innovate kit why not spend that same 4K on a Jackson and get much more Horses.

But yeah personal preferences lol.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Because at the end of the day, there is no replacement for displacement....

The wide, flat torque curves are actually manufacturers chasing emissions and MPG ratings, rather than "driveability", for the most part. I wouldn't call a EJ257 with a powerband of 4k-6k wide and flat Or a 4G63 in an Evo. Or the M133 in the CLA45 AMG.

I do agree, big flat powerbands are nice for street driving, but I don't think that's why most people decided to purchase a FRS/BRZ.

The big difference in driveability is not that the Innovate makes more power down low, but that the Innovate's throttle tip in is ultra aggressive. If you do a 20-80 3rd gear (MT) pull in a Vortech vs Innovate car, the Innovate never pulls more than about 3-4 feet before the Vortech starts reeling in the Innovate car.

Likewise, if you do a 20-80 pull in a VQ35DE 350Z vs AP2 S2000, the 350Z doesn't actually ever get more than about 5 feet ahead, before the S2k wizzes by.

In both cases, the Innovate and 350z *feel* subjectively much more powerful at low RPMs.

In my case, I'm never in the 1500-2500RPM range unless I'm strictly cruising; downshifting to accelerate comes naturally to me, and a 3 gear downshift isn't out of the ordinary when I'm driving.

Why do you prefer to not downshift for a pass street driving? Inconvenience? An Auto (or twin cluch in some other platforms) would fix that...

Different strokes for different folks.

Ugh, an awful lot of generalizations and subjective comparisons here:

"I do agree, big flat powerbands are nice for street driving, but I don't think that's why most people decided to purchase a FRS/BRZ. " - most people bought the FRS/BRZ because it offers a very capable and fun chassis for very little money. There's a rapidly growing aftermarket for the FA20, mostly because people are looking for more power and a better power band. Headers are a hot item, mostly because it improves low end torque.


"The big difference in driveability is not that the Innovate makes more power down low, but that the Innovate's throttle tip in is ultra aggressive. If you do a 20-80 3rd gear (MT) pull in a Vortech vs Innovate car, the Innovate never pulls more than about 3-4 feet before the Vortech starts reeling in the Innovate car." - specific examples? Vortechs range from 230whp to over 300whp peak. Innovate kits vary from 210whp to 300whp. I have no doubt that a "tuned up" Vortech kit will zoom by a base map non-intercooled Innovate kit. Take an Innovate kit tuned to 280 whp (common), and a vortech kit tuned to 280 whp (common) and the Innovate kit will walk away from the Vortech kit.

"Why do you prefer to not downshift for a pass street driving? Inconvenience? An Auto (or twin cluch in some other platforms) would fix that..." - Well I don't particularly mind downshifting, like I said I enjoy it most of the time. But you have to be prepared - many times in traffic situations you're caught in a lower gear but need to make a quick decision to accelerate (switching lanes in traffic etc.) Big torque band makes it effortless. I prefer a manual because I enjoy the experience, I shouldn't have to resort to a different gearbox because my engine is peaky - I'd rather just resort to a well designed/tuned PD SC or turbo system.

Not really looking to butt heads with anyone on this - to each their own, but I don't really think you can argue that a peaky torque curve is generally superior or preferable to a flat torque curve. Centrifugal superchargers are a compromise system - they work well enough (especially for track use), but there's a reason manufacturers don't use them, because well engineered positive displacement systems or turbochargers are just a better option.

[tahdizzle]

At my local autocross events, the course is really technical. Often the best method is to just leave it in second and just drive.

At those events, I spend a lot of the time below 5k. Now I am defintely not the fastest guy, but Probably 99.9% of the participants drive the same way. Just better at keeping it in the higher rpms than I. (I lack confidence in myself and the Car. Partially because breaking something is always in the back of my mind)

For that reason, I would prefer a PD blower over a Centrifugal unit.

[jwvand02]

I'll throw my two cents in. Full disclosure, I am an innovate/sprintex owner.

Basically, my car is 99.9% a street car. I drive it every day there's not snow or ice or a ton of water on the ground. I also have E85 very readily available.

On E85, the Innovate kit pushes very close to 300whp, depending on tune. In my opinion, that's the sweet spot for this car. Any more power and you really have to start beefing up the drivetrain. Anymore than that, and you're going to roast anything less than 255s.

So the Innovate kit is the most fun option for me. I can jab the throttle at 2.5k and spin the rear tires. I've got as much power as I really want and I have it very early. Compared to a centrifugal kit at the same power level, the area under the curve, and therefore the felt acceleration, is higher, especially from a low RPM.

[tahdizzle]

I have no idea what the word is on the sprintex kit. Is it CARB exempt? is it Pending? I keep getting different answers from different people.

For us Cali guys (who care about legality), that is one reason NOT to get the innovate kit over the JR kit.