When the FR-S get a HP increase...

[bcj]

Originally Posted by totopo

sports cars these days are not momentum cars

Sports cars are, and always have been, momentum cars.
If you can break your 15" slicks loose in any gear, well, that's NOT a sports car.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

coprolalia

I'm not listening <fingers-in-ears> LA LA LA LA LA<\fingers>

[totopo]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Have you ever actually driven an FR-S at the track? You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what it's like to drive these cars at the track, a lot of which I can tell you is wrong, especially about power-oversteer and throttle application on exit. Also, why wouldn't you be trail-braking into corners on low-hp cars like the Miata and FR-S?

Lastly I've mentioned this before, but there are tests showing that the GT86 gains 2 seconds at Hockenheimring by switching to what you would call UHP tires. The GT86 also shaved 20+ seconds at Nurburgring with the same tire switch.

This is only on mild RE050A's, same category of tires that come stock on cars like the Focus ST, 370z, Miata, Mazdaspeed 3, MK7 GTI, etc.

I wish I could have driven an fr-s at the track, I really wanted to... There's no one renting them out and I'm not a good enough driver to convince people to let me drive their cars. If I had driven both a 370z and fr-s at the track, maybe I would have changed my mind and chosen the fr-s instead. I will never know. The best I could do was ask the good drivers their opinions of the car. Which was, It's a ton of fun, easy to drive, easy to point on the track.... but doesn't teach you throttle control and is pretty vanilla at corner exit.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

That's not carrying enough speed into the corner, the only way you can 'slam on the gas at apex' is if you're going too slow for your inputs to matter. What you've described shows that the driver is braking too hard and more momentum can be carried through the corner.



The momentum line applies to all vehicles, not just the Miata or Toyobaru. A timed lap results in an average speed, graph your speed over a lap and you'll have peaks and valleys, it's a lot easier to bring up the low points (which often has the added bonus of increasing the peaks as well) than it is to increase the top end, cheaper too for most of us average folk. I don't care if you've got 10" wide Hoosier Slicks and 600 horses, physics applies the same.

So there are muliple lines through a corner. So if you can drive the momentum line fast, you can be fast in any car.... but you could be faster in high hp cars if you took a shorter distance or late apex line.

like what these people are talking about:
http://www.drivingfast.net/techniques/racing-line.htm


here's a good discourse on the racing line:
http://www.raceoptimal.com/blog/a-su...te-of-affairs/

Here is a video to show the difference. The pro (second driver) takes more of a more standard racer line, and the amateur (first driver) takes the total momentum line, which happens to be faster for this miata (and the gt-r totally takes a lazy shorter distance line) skip to like 4:30:
[ame]http://youtu.be/LLtOaTuV550?t=4m33s[/ame]

If you think that throttle application on corner out is similar in a fr-s to a like corvette....

I can't seem to find a good video of a pro with a pedal cam on the fr-s. You can kind of tell in this video there's not much going on at corner exit:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-NXo94dpag"]Toyota 86, Nissan GT-R Track Pack Model Impression - HV 115 Part 1 of 6 - YouTube[/ame]



Basically, are all of you really telling me that driving a miata on the track is no difference than driving a zr1 on the track? That all the extra power of the zr1 doesn't mean anything and the only difference is the speed you reach at the end of the straight?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by totopo

Basically, are all of you really telling me that driving a miata on the track is no difference than driving a zr1 on the track? That all the extra power of the zr1 doesn't mean anything and the only difference is the speed you reach at the end of the straight?

Yes. The goal of a fast lap is utilizing 100% of the traction available to you, whilst turning in a Miata you cannot pound the throttle because you are traveling at speed while accelerating laterally, an excessive throttle input would exceed the grip available, exactly the same as a ZR1. Sure you can be more aggressive on the throttle with the Miata and be on the power more quickly but the balance is still there, the finesse is still there.

The advantage of the racing line is not in speed but rather defense and flexibility, the line run for qualifying will differ from the line run during a racing lap, the point of some of the authors you've brought up is that if done correctly the amount of speed sacrificed is minimal. But again the techniques applied are the same, the physics don't change.

I found a footcam from a race prepped RSX, now I do not know what level the power is but a base model started at 160 and the S was at 200, and it is FWD, note that there is no "foot on the floor action" the throttle gets rolled on progressively, albeit quickly, in most cases.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dAP7ksVcxw"]Alex Healy Racing - Racing Foot Cam - YouTube[/ame]



Next up is a Spec Miata, no need to watch the whole video, the first minute prooves the point quite well:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8UN8QmIvfM"]PBOC WinterFest 2012 R7 Spe Miata Qualifying Heel/Toe Foot Cam - YouTube[/ame]

And of course there's Ayrton Senna in the NSX around Suzuka, that car at the time had 270 horses, not much standing on the gas pedal there either imo as he didn't have a bunch of practice time it most certainly wasn't the fastest possible lap, there's more speed to be found for him:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwJsOECGBU"]Ayrton Senna - Honda NSX @ Suzuka - YouTube[/ame]

[GT86_PRAGUE]

Originally Posted by Defuser

The lame-ass sounding horn. I don't honk often, but I cringe every time I push the horn!

Change it. I switched to Lambo horn and I love it now

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by totopo

I wish I could have driven an fr-s at the track, I really wanted to... There's no one renting them out and I'm not a good enough driver to convince people to let me drive their cars. If I had driven both a 370z and fr-s at the track, maybe I would have changed my mind and chosen the fr-s instead. I will never know. The best I could do was ask the good drivers their opinions of the car. Which was, It's a ton of fun, easy to drive, easy to point on the track.... but doesn't teach you throttle control and is pretty vanilla at corner exit.

I don't know what those drivers told you about driving an FR-S or what their actual track experience with the car is, but you can't just "slam on the gas at apex" and expect the rear to hold. If you're cornering anywhere near the limit and try that, you will power oversteer into a spin. The car loads up the front and rear pretty evenly in corners. So if you apply throttle too aggressively at apex, you overpower the remaining traction at the rear end and get rotation. As stratcaster61 said, it's just physics.

You should really try driving an FR-S on the track and forming an opinion for yourself. I'm not saying you'd have bought it over your 370z (not sure why you brought the 370z up), but I'm simply saying if you're going to try to describe for others the behavior of the FR-S at the limit, you should do it from experience. Just my 2c.

[Tromatic]

This thread has reinforced my opinion that people who just want POWAH! for powah's sake thinking that will make the car faster everywhere don't really know how to drive.

Sucks to be you, because even a stock FR-S is a very capable car if you bother to learn how to drive it well despite all of its glaring (to some at least) faults. The dudes who designed and built this car pulled one over on the suits, and they nailed it. It's not their fault some of you are not smart enough to appreciate it!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Tromatic

This thread has reinforced my opinion that people who just want POWAH! for powah's sake thinking that will make the car faster everywhere don't really know how to drive.

Sucks to be you, because even a stock FR-S is a very capable car if you bother to learn how to drive it well despite all of its glaring (to some at least) faults. The dudes who designed and built this car pulled one over on the suits, and they nailed it. It's not their fault some of you are not smart enough to appreciate it!

What is amazing are the number of people that make all the "car sucks at XXX" statements that have never driven one or spent 10 minutes on a test drive and are now experts. There are at least 2 or 3 on every thread like this one.
I am not for a second saying the car is the end all and be all, but damn people drive it for more then a few minutes with a salesman beside you before you make up your mind and try to argue any point.

[Tromatic]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

What is amazing are the number of people that make all the "car sucks at XXX" statements that have never driven one or spent 10 minutes on a test drive and are now experts. There are at least 2 or 3 on every thread like this one.
I am not for a second saying the car is the end all and be all, but damn people drive it for more then a few minutes with a salesman beside you before you make up your mind and try to argue any point.

All Fast and Furious fans, probably, p e n i s length based on straight line speed and the amount of crap riveted to the body.

Ahh, whatever. Soon it will be spring, and all the fat-ass p e n i s - less HD homo's will be sounding their mating call at stop lights at zero-dark and I can move on to bitching about that.

[nikitopo]

I think the car is too much focused. It is a very good car but mainly for racers and/or tuners. Rest of the world wants turbo or a bigger displacement from the factory. That's the sad truth.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I think the car is too much focused. It is a very good car but mainly for racers and/or tuners. Rest of the world wants turbo or a bigger displacement from the factory. That's the sad truth.

Just going to keep this and drop it every time that sort of statement comes out!
If you wanted more power then you should have bought a car with more power or be prepared to mod!

Tada:
“We visited with car enthusiasts in Japan, America and Europe. The feedback we received was almost always the same. They said there are a lot of sports cars with high horsepower that are very fast, but these are not the sports cars that they want to have. They want small compact cars that are controllable, that they can tune themselves. However, that kind of sports car is not on the market. Therefore, these sports car enthusiasts are forced to continue to use older cars from a long time ago, because there is no new alterative on the market.”


“We also went to competitors and asked them: “Why do you focus on fast cars?” The response almost always was: ‘Actually, we really don’t want to develop these kinds of cars. But once we bring a plan to develop that car to our board, the first question the directors of the company would ask is: How much faster is that car compared to what the competition has? How many seconds faster around the Nürburgring? What about the acceleration? These questions always come up because numerical performance is the easiest to understand.


It is impossible to develop a sports car that appeals to everybody. If you try to please everybody, the car would be half-baked for everybody, and not particularly good for anybody. This car is not developed by a committee, or by consensus.”



“When we first presented this idea to our advertising people, they were drastically opposed to this idea. They complained that the car doesn’t have a particularly fast time on the circuit, it does not use any new technology. They also could not think of a catchy headline for the catalogue.”

[Decay107]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

“When we first presented this idea to our advertising people, they were drastically opposed to this idea. They complained that the car doesn’t have a particularly fast time on the circuit, it does not use any new technology. They also could not think of a catchy headline for the catalogue.”

but... but... dat D4S doe

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Decay107

but... but... dat D4S yo

Tada's quote, not mine!

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Decay107

but... but... dat D4S doe

Toyota's first direct injection system 'D4' was implemented in 1996, the D4-S as we know it today was brought to market on 2006 model vehicles (so in 2005), most definitely not 'new' in any sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine#2GR-FSE

[Tcoat]

When the FR-S get a HP increase...

Originally Posted by LucidMomentum

...what will we all complain about next on the forums?

Well Lucid it would appear that a pile of people didn't catch the theme of your thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!