Scion VP on Jalopnik

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by totopo

I wouldn't mind seeing it to just see to see how it sells. without ac i doubt it would sell enough to make any money. I doubt we will ever see track cars like that in the states.

Yeah, I don't think it would be a money maker, but I would have went with that model if it was offered in the states. It reminds me of the EvoIX RS (one of my dream cars).

Originally Posted by totopo

This is the thing that I always see that I don't understand. Are they going to design a one-off transmission to go with this supercharger? they don't have a rwd manual offering for that kind of torque. What drivetrain parts are they going to use? are people going to be willing to pay like $40k and 300lbs for a custom produced and installed transmission and drivetrain just for an oem warranty and toyota reliability?

I was under the impression that these cars are able to handle more power relatively well. Arent there people with aftermarket superchargers who are still on factory transmissions, and drivetrains?

[Tromatic]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

2. Introduce a revised model with an updated front/rear bumper, along with small tweaks to squeeze some more power out of the car, even if it's only 10-20hp.

I'd like this:

[totopo]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I was under the impression that these cars are able to handle more power relatively well. Arent there people with aftermarket superchargers who are still on factory transmissions, and drivetrains?

There are people who use factory transmission and drivetrains, but I am highly skeptical it would pass QC for an OEM car.

https://kaizenfactor.wordpress.com/2...e-know-so-far/

For those of you who are looking forward to turbo or supercharge your BRZ / FR-S / GT 86 via the aftermarket, however, we must remind you of a crucial caveat that appears on the second photo of this article: “Medium Torque Capacity RWD 6-Speed Manual transmission (AZ6)”. A cursory glance at all the vehicles that have used the Aisin AZ6 reveals that the torquiest of the lot is the S15 Nissan Silvia Spec-R, producing 202 lb/ft. All other AZ6 users produced somewhere between 124 and 163 lb/ft of torque, with stock BRZ / FR-S / GT 86 rated at 151 lb/ft. Notably, when the North American market demanded a manual transmission option for the Lexus IS 300 and its 2JZ-GE 3-liter inline 6’s 218 lb/ft of torque, the Aisin AZ6 (or J160 in Toyotaspeak) was deemed to be too weak. Instead, a W55 variant of the W58 5-speed manual from the naturally-aspirated Toyota Supra and Lexus SC 300 was used. Thus, it’ll be quite interesting to see what Subaru and Toyota engineers would do for a possible future manual supercharged or turbocharged FT-86 variant. Further modifying the existing AZ6? Or doing so with the higher-capacity AY6 (which can reportedly handle over 345 lb/ft of torque)? Or reach out to Getrag as Toyota did for the 233/V160 when it needed a stout yet sporting 6-speed manual for the Mk4 Supra Twin Turbo?

I think the answer to those questions is now, none of the above. They just won't make it.

Also, looking at the "who broke their axle" thread, makes me think the axle isn't designed to take much torque either.

[funwheeldrive]

Heck, I'd be happy with 180lb/ft of torque in this car. And as far as the axles go, it sounds like that is more related to aftermarket springs/coils as opposed to power output. A TRD supercharger would obviously need to be pretty conservative to maintain emission standards and reliability, but I think the car can take it.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Heck, I'd be happy with 180lb/ft of torque in this car. And as far as the axles go, it sounds like that is more related to aftermarket springs/coils as opposed to power output. A TRD supercharger would obviously need to be pretty conservative to maintain emission standards and reliability, but I think the car can take it.

So you want a ~220-230hp 180lb/ft torque car which weighs 2900-3000lbs and costs 30-35k?

So... like an s2k. with a roof and 2 seats and 100 more lbs...

pretty sure there's not much of a market for that, or else they would continue to make the s2k. Toyota was specifically trying to go under the market of the s2k because of the abysmal long term sales in that category.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by Braces

Well ... Let's look at other successful car manufacturers and a few of their model progressions.

Cayman ... Cayman S ... Cayman R
911 ... 911S ... 911C4 ...911C4S ...911GT3 ...911Turbo ... 911Turbo S
Corvette ... Corvette GS ... Z06 ... ZR1
Audi A () ...Audi S () ... Audi RS () .... R8 ... R8plus
Ford Mustang (6 cyl) ....Mustang 5.0 .... Shelby GT350 ... Shelby Supercharged
Mercedes ....Mercedes AMG
BMW ... BMW M
Ferrari 360 .... 360CS
Ferrari F430 ... F430 Scud

There are plenty of examples. Nothing wrong with starting out with a base model and then offering future upgraded models. It keeps the existing model line fresh and prolongs its life.

I was referring more to misconceptions about how products are developed, who has a hand in their approval/development, and how information is disclosed about those new products. Of course upgraded models/trims can be added, but that's a completely different discussion from the point I was making in my post.

[BlackMonarch]

Originally Posted by totopo

I wouldn't mind seeing it to just see to see how it sells. without ac i doubt it would sell enough to make any money. I doubt we will ever see track cars like that in the states.

I think people are still stuck in the tuner mindset of the 80's and 90's when there was easy hp to be found in non-sports consumer cars. I am highly skeptical there are any "small tweaks" that can add power while maintaining OEM reliability and emission standards.


This is the thing that I always see that I don't understand. Are they going to design a one-off transmission to go with this supercharger? they don't have a rwd manual offering for that kind of torque. What drivetrain parts are they going to use? are people going to be willing to pay like $40k and 300lbs for a custom produced and installed transmission and drivetrain just for an oem warranty and toyota reliability?

You should open a salon with how many hairs you're splitting. The fact is we likely won't ever see an F\I from the factory. The transmission that is in the car can handle (from everything I've seen) up to 340whp, without breaking immediately. Safe range? Probably 280-ish.

Your go-to argument of "Well you want more power, what transmission?!" is moot - Doesn't matter in the least what they WOULD use - because they won't. Also your prices are way off base.

They could realistically provide a non-FI retune of the engine from the factory to put it right at 210-ish crank horsepower, and use that as the mid-cycle refresh. The price they charge at the moment for a 1.0 Release Edition is what I imagine they would charge for an S\C or Turbo model, without all the tarting up of the bumpers.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

I was referring more to misconceptions about how products are developed, who has a hand in their approval/development, and how information is disclosed about those new products. Of course upgraded models/trims can be added, but that's a completely different discussion from the point I was making in my post.

I am pretty sure that a lot of the "they can just do xxx" folks think that the development process consists of running out to the corner auto shop and saying "we need this, that and one of those" and slapping it on the car.
I am not even directly involved in the development of new parts and still spend a great deal of time providing info, researching materials and ensuring compliance for the guys that are involved.
Just monitoring and ensuring that the emission control requirements are met for all the countries where a vehicle is sold is a full time job for a whole department in my company!
Different countries and even different States (I don't know how cars even run in California anymore) have different requirements and the car has to meet them all to be sold there.
Just because you can buy an aftermarket turbo and slap it on your car does not mean it meets the requirements and could be sold as stock.
In Canada we could not have Evos right up to the X model since they failed the crash tests that only permit so much damage (don't recall the cut off point, sorry) at a 10 mile an hour crash. All that was keeping them out of the country was the position of the intercooler and the fact it got damaged in a head on crash. Mitsu did not see a big enough market to change everything just for Canada so we had to wait until a full model change to get them.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am pretty sure that a lot of the "they can just do xxx" folks think that the development process consists of running out to the corner auto shop and saying "we need this, that and one of those" and slapping it on the car.
I am not even directly involved in the development of new parts and still spend a great deal of time providing info, researching materials and ensuring compliance for the guys that are involved.
Just monitoring and ensuring that the emission control requirements are met for all the countries where a vehicle is sold is a full time job for a whole department in my company!
Different countries and even different States (I don't know how cars even run in California anymore) have different requirements and the car has to meet them all to be sold there.
Just because you can buy an aftermarket turbo and slap it on your car does not mean it meets the requirements and could be sold as stock.
In Canada we could not have Evos right up to the X model since they failed the crash tests that only permit so much damage (don't recall the cut off point, sorry) at a 10 mile an hour crash. All that was keeping them out of the country was the position of the intercooler and the fact it got damaged in a head on crash. Mitsu did not see a big enough market to change everything just for Canada so we had to wait until a full model change to get them.

Exactly.

However, you guys can import JDM cars a lot easier and can actually an Evo IV or V; so I don't wanna hear it! lol

[Braces]

Here's the reality. The future plans for the FR-S were developed BEFORE the car was ever built. If this is a one and done model ... then that was the original plan REGARDLESS of what people may want. Manufacturers just don't willy nilly decide to make a convertible because people may want it. If it wasn't designed from the get go ... it isn't going to happen.

As for power ... if the ORIGINAL intent was to offer higher powered future models ... then the existing platform (chassis, transmission, axles, etc. ) would have been "over-engineered" for this purpose. In order to make money .... a single chassis would have been engineered to accomodate ALL future planned models.

Bottom line: only Toyota knows and obviously ... they are not going to let out the secret. What we say or want is going to have no impact on what has already been planned at the beginning.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by BlackMonarch

You should open a salon with how many hairs you're splitting. The fact is we likely won't ever see an F\I from the factory. The transmission that is in the car can handle (from everything I've seen) up to 340whp, without breaking immediately. Safe range? Probably 280-ish.

Where do you get your "280 is safe" from? Why do people think oh, my cousin joe gets ___ hp from the car for 10k miles, it must be perfectly okay! and drive-line components need to withstand torque, not hp so much.

please read what I previously posted:
https://kaizenfactor.wordpress.com/2...e-know-so-far/
"For those of you who are looking forward to turbo or supercharge your BRZ / FR-S / GT 86 via the aftermarket, however, we must remind you of a crucial caveat that appears on the second photo of this article: “Medium Torque Capacity RWD 6-Speed Manual transmission (AZ6)”. A cursory glance at all the vehicles that have used the Aisin AZ6 reveals that the torquiest of the lot is the S15 Nissan Silvia Spec-R, producing 202 lb/ft. All other AZ6 users produced somewhere between 124 and 163 lb/ft of torque, with stock BRZ / FR-S / GT 86 rated at 151 lb/ft. Notably, when the North American market demanded a manual transmission option for the Lexus IS 300 and its 2JZ-GE 3-liter inline 6’s 218 lb/ft of torque, the Aisin AZ6 (or J160 in Toyotaspeak) was deemed to be too weak. Instead, a W55 variant of the W58 5-speed manual from the naturally-aspirated Toyota Supra and Lexus SC 300 was used. Thus, it’ll be quite interesting to see what Subaru and Toyota engineers would do for a possible future manual supercharged or turbocharged FT-86 variant. Further modifying the existing AZ6? Or doing so with the higher-capacity AY6 (which can reportedly handle over 345 lb/ft of torque)? Or reach out to Getrag as Toyota did for the 233/V160 when it needed a stout yet sporting 6-speed manual for the Mk4 Supra Twin Turbo?"

Your go-to argument of "Well you want more power, what transmission?!" is moot - Doesn't matter in the least what they WOULD use - because they won't. Also your prices are way off base.

They could realistically provide a non-FI retune of the engine from the factory to put it right at 210-ish crank horsepower, and use that as the mid-cycle refresh. The price they charge at the moment for a 1.0 Release Edition is what I imagine they would charge for an S\C or Turbo model, without all the tarting up of the bumpers.

How are you so sure they can just flip a switch and get 10 more hp with just a little bit of price? There are so many factors involved. Do you personally know the engineers or something?

[tennisfreak]

Originally Posted by totopo

So you want a ~220-230hp 180lb/ft torque car which weighs 2900-3000lbs and costs 30-35k?

So... like an s2k. with a roof and 2 seats and 100 more lbs...

pretty sure there's not much of a market for that, or else they would continue to make the s2k. Toyota was specifically trying to go under the market of the s2k because of the abysmal long term sales in that category.

A. s2k were no 30k cars they were 40k cars.
B. More like a 250hp car that weighs 2800lbs for 30k would be ideal and achievable.

No market for more power?
Here are a few threads from this forum that demonstrate a small sample of the buying public showing there is a market for more power. Yes some of these people want to mod themselves but there are lots of them who would also buy a model with more power as well.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ighlight=quest
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ighlight=quest
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ighlight=quest

Really there is tons of information out there showing the want and market for a more powerful version of the car.

Originally Posted by Braces

Here's the reality. The future plans for the FR-S were developed BEFORE the car was ever built. If this is a one and done model ... then that was the original plan REGARDLESS of what people may want. Manufacturers just don't willy nilly decide to make a convertible because people may want it. If it wasn't designed from the get go ... it isn't going to happen.

As for power ... if the ORIGINAL intent was to offer higher powered future models ... then the existing platform (chassis, transmission, axles, etc. ) would have been "over-engineered" for this purpose. In order to make money .... a single chassis would have been engineered to accomodate ALL future planned models.

Bottom line: only Toyota knows and obviously ... they are not going to let out the secret. What we say or want is going to have no impact on what has already been planned at the beginning.

I completely agree with ya on this one. What I hope is that Toyota sees the success from the existing 86 platform and also sees its shortcomings and hopefully plans future cars around it.

[Jyn]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am pretty sure that a lot of the "they can just do xxx" folks think that the development process consists of running out to the corner auto shop and saying "we need this, that and one of those" and slapping it on the car.
I am not even directly involved in the development of new parts and still spend a great deal of time providing info, researching materials and ensuring compliance for the guys that are involved.
Just monitoring and ensuring that the emission control requirements are met for all the countries where a vehicle is sold is a full time job for a whole department in my company!

This is why I kinda regret making this thread; in the excitement of the article, I completely forgot how clueless some people are (but refuse to believe they have things to learn when suggested otherwise).

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

What I hope is that Toyota sees the success from the existing 86 platform and also sees its shortcomings and hopefully plans future cars around it.

Hence one of the quotes I listed in the OP: Having the VP of Scion - a brand that markets itself in the $20k "cheap" market, publicly admit how pleased and surprised(!) they are at the number of $26k+ cars sold is great news in terms of the hopeful trend of sport car offerings from Toyota and Scion to come!

[totopo]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

A. s2k were no 30k cars they were 40k cars.
B. More like a 250hp car that weighs 2800lbs for 30k would be ideal and achievable.

I completely agree with ya on this one. What I hope is that Toyota sees the success from the existing 86 platform and also sees its shortcomings and hopefully plans future cars around it.

please read the previous posts. to see context. i said 220hp because felt that was about what you might get from a supercharged fa20 with 180 torque.

Why does everyone keep spouting your example of B? How are you going to get to 250hp? turbo? turbo adds more torque relative to hp. so the cheap way to turbo would be to use wrx components. 270hp, 268 torque. what transmission are you going to use to take 268 torque? do the axles survive that? (i highly doubt it) Are you going to beef up the chassis and driveline components for the 200hp version to get economies of scale to make a car with 2 versions? What engine these days can rev to the moon like the f22c1, which is what you need for high hp and manageable torque.

i'll just quote what I posted previously because people don't seem to read more than one post up.

"I don't see how people expect to see a fr-s/brz with more hp. What transmission are they going to use? what drivetrain are they going to use? how much weight is it going to add? are you going to use the beefier parts in the smaller engine brz (like all the other cars with multiple engine offerings) and add to the weight?

Would people buy either a 200hp 3000lb twin or a 270hp 3100lb twin that costs 35k?

Light weight, high hp, cost. Pick at most 2 out of 3, usually more like 1.5. MR cars don't sell well so scratch that off the list. Name me a modern car (that passes modern safety standards) that you classify as light weight and good enough hp. The s2k is closest historically with laxer emission standards. And it only had 10 more ft. lbs of torque than the brz, so don't even think about small displacement turbos, they put out huge torque for their hp. Beefier torque needs beefier everything. If it were so easy to make a <3000lb >300hp <30k car you think people wouldn't make it? Go look at the actual weights of modern cars. Safety standards hurts.

"light weight" is a luxury of MR cars or kit cars or cars of the past with shitty tires, no safety standards, and no torque. You can't have everything. it's like a line at the budget trade off. And if you hear what the actual bean counters and engineers at toyota are saying, they think they chose the wrong point in the line. It currently goes like, miata -> twins -> nissan z, bmw's -> mustang/camaro. And toyota thinks the market segment that needs catering to is under the miata. same with honda with the s660. I really wonder what the heck nissan is going to do with the z car. I can't see a good niche for it. "