Scion VP on Jalopnik

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

You take that back! Frozen was an awesome movie!

Do you wanna build a snowmaaaan
Or ride our bikes around the haaaaalls
I think some company is overdue
I've started talking to
the pictures on the waaaaalls

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You're right, Nissan's '03 and '04 sales outpaced Toyobaru's '13 & '14
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

36k & 30k vs. 26k & 21k

And it's likely that the '05 & '06 sales will outpace '15 & '16 but I would expect similar dropoffs. I'm not surprised at all by the Toyobaru's sales trends, the RX-8, S2000, and NC Miata all follow similar trends to the 350Z, and now add the Toyobaru to the dataset.

It's also arguable that Nissan has had any lightweight RWD platforms since the 240sx, at it's lightest the 350z clocks in ~3,200 lbs...

Edit: Also worth noting Nissan had more resources to dump into chassis, suspension, styling and interior as the powertrain is sourced from their trucks and larger sedans/utility vehicles which seemed to fit the American market at the time (muscle car strategy, big beefy utilitarian powertrain stuffed into a small body).

Booming economy vs. Busted economy

[tahdizzle]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Do you wanna build a snowmaaaan
Or ride our bikes around the haaaaalls
I think some company is overdue
I've started talking to
the pictures on the waaaaalls

/sarcasm off

That was a terrible movie!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

Reading comments on threads like this really speaks to the age, or perhaps the education, of many Toyobaru owners. There seems to be an incredibly poor understanding of how things work within major corporations, who is privy to what sort of information, and how new products are developed/introduced.

There's far too much unfounded speculation and incredibly generalized assumptions based off of societal misconceptions/stuff you might learn in movies.

Yes!
We are currently developing parts for some 2020 models at work!
The new Chrysler mini van has been in development for 4 years and we have to build a whole new plant and completely change our tech just to be able to assemble the suspension modules for the new platform. I (of course) can not say what it is costing the company but the number is staggering and we only assemble about 2% of the vehicle. (this is all in the Windsor paper so I am not disclosing any info here).
I can not even begin to describe what has to be gone through to change even the smallest component that may effect mileage, emissions or safety requirements!
Anybody that thinks the costs of adding a turbo on a production car is restricted to the price of the parts alone is very, very sadly mistaken!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

/sarcasm off

That was a terrible movie!

Grand kids!
I have seen or at least heard that movie somewhere around 2,836 times!
I hear and see it in my sleep!
Just when I had almost forgotten it you had to bring it all flowing back!
Can't take it anymore...where did I put my rope and chair??????

[Tromatic]

Jay Leno visited the Nissan HQ/whatever in SoCal and got a look at some drawings of the proposed "new" 240/60/whatever. Looked like hammered shit, and not at all based on the looks of the classic 240. How stupid do you have to be to have a 240 in the design shop and not go with that?

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Tromatic

Jay Leno visited the Nissan HQ/whatever in SoCal and got a look at some drawings of the proposed "new" 240/60/whatever. Looked like hammered shit, and not at all based on the looks of the classic 240. How stupid do you have to be to have a 240 in the design shop and not go with that?

Toyota beat Nissan to the punch.

There's not only a lot of Toyo 2000GT in the '86, but a few shakes of Datsun 240z as well. Now Nissan has to go in another direction while still trying to work in whatever current design language they can. Yes the same design language that shat the Ju(n)ke from Nissan's wretched womb.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Grand kids!
I have seen or at least heard that movie somewhere around 2,836 times!
I hear and see it in my sleep!
Just when I had almost forgotten it you had to bring it all flowing back!
Can't take it anymore...where did I put my rope and chair??????

Rope goes here.
Chair gets kicked over there.

[Braces]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

There's far too much unfounded speculation and incredibly generalized assumptions based off of societal misconceptions/stuff you might learn in movies.

Well ... Let's look at other successful car manufacturers and a few of their model progressions.

Cayman ... Cayman S ... Cayman R
911 ... 911S ... 911C4 ...911C4S ...911GT3 ...911Turbo ... 911Turbo S
Corvette ... Corvette GS ... Z06 ... ZR1
Audi A () ...Audi S () ... Audi RS () .... R8 ... R8plus
Ford Mustang (6 cyl) ....Mustang 5.0 .... Shelby GT350 ... Shelby Supercharged
Mercedes ....Mercedes AMG
BMW ... BMW M
Ferrari 360 .... 360CS
Ferrari F430 ... F430 Scud

There are plenty of examples. Nothing wrong with starting out with a base model and then offering future upgraded models. It keeps the existing model line fresh and prolongs its life.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Braces

Well ... Let's look at other successful car manufacturers and a few of their model progressions.

Cayman ... Cayman S ... Cayman R
911 ... 911S ... 911C4 ...911C4S ...911GT3 ...911Turbo ... 911Turbo S
Corvette ... Corvette GS ... Z06 ... ZR1
Audi A () ...Audi S () ... Audi RS () .... R8 ... R8plus
Ford Mustang (6 cyl) ....Mustang 5.0 .... Shelby GT350 ... Shelby Supercharged
Mercedes ....Mercedes AMG
BMW ... BMW M
Ferrari 360 .... 360CS
Ferrari F430 ... F430 Scud

There are plenty of examples. Nothing wrong with starting out with a base model and then offering future upgraded models. It keeps the existing model line fresh and prolongs its life.

You have a valid point but unfortunately the counter point is just as strong.
For each of those there are at least two (maybe even three or four) great cars that sold well and were very well loved that are no longer with us.
Not as ambitious as you to list them all but several Toyota models alone come to mind.

[Tromatic]

Originally Posted by Braces

Well ... Let's look at other successful car manufacturers and a few of their model progressions.

Cayman ... Cayman S ... Cayman R
911 ... 911S ... 911C4 ...911C4S ...911GT3 ...911Turbo ... 911Turbo S
Corvette ... Corvette GS ... Z06 ... ZR1
Audi A () ...Audi S () ... Audi RS () .... R8 ... R8plus
Ford Mustang (6 cyl) ....Mustang 5.0 .... Shelby GT350 ... Shelby Supercharged
Mercedes ....Mercedes AMG
BMW ... BMW M
Ferrari 360 .... 360CS
Ferrari F430 ... F430 Scud

There are plenty of examples. Nothing wrong with starting out with a base model and then offering future upgraded models. It keeps the existing model line fresh and prolongs its life.

AMG Scion? FR-S M? If anything, the FR-S becomes the rumored cheaper version and Toyota takes over the big fun. At the end of the day, it's a freakin' Subaru econobox with a sexy body.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Toyota beat Nissan to the punch.

There's not only a lot of Toyo 2000GT in the '86, but a few shakes of Datsun 240z as well. Now Nissan has to go in another direction while still trying to work in whatever current design language they can. Yes the same design language that shat the Ju(n)ke from Nissan's wretched womb.

I've always wanted an original 240, but that won't happen.

Not Nissan's design. If it were, "shut up and take my money."

[totopo]

I don't see how people expect to see a fr-s/brz with more hp. What transmission are they going to use? what drivetrain are they going to use? how much weight is it going to add? are you going to use the beefier parts in the smaller engine brz (like all the other cars with multiple engine offerings) and add to the weight?

Would people buy either a 200hp 3000lb twin or a 270hp 3100lb twin that costs 35k?

Light weight, high hp, cost. Pick at most 2 out of 3, usually more like 1.5. MR cars don't sell well so scratch that off the list. Name me a modern car (that passes modern safety standards) that you classify as light weight and good enough hp. The s2k is closest historically with laxer emission standards. And it only had 10 more ft. lbs of torque than the brz, so don't even think about small displacement turbos, they put out huge torque for their hp. Beefier torque needs beefier everything. If it were so easy to make a <3000lb >300hp <30k car you think people wouldn't make it? Go look at the actual weights of modern cars. Safety standards hurts.

"light weight" is a luxury of MR cars or kit cars or cars of the past with shitty tires, no safety standards, and no torque. You can't have everything. it's like a line at the budget trade off. And if you hear what the actual bean counters and engineers at toyota are saying, they think they chose the wrong point in the line. It currently goes like, miata -> twins -> nissan z, bmw's -> mustang/camaro. And toyota thinks the market segment that needs catering to is under the miata. same with honda with the s660. I really wonder what the heck nissan is going to do with the z car. I can't see a good niche for it.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by totopo

I don't see how people expect to see a fr-s/brz with more hp. What transmission are they going to use? what drivetrain are they going to use? how much weight is it going to add? are you going to use the beefier parts in the smaller engine brz (like all the other cars with multiple engine offerings) and add to the weight?

Would people buy either a 200hp 3000lb twin or a 270hp 3100lb twin that costs 35k?

Light weight, high hp, cost. Pick at most 2 out of 3, usually more like 1.5. MR cars don't sell well so scratch that off the list. Name me a modern car (that passes modern safety standards) that you classify as light weight and good enough hp. The s2k is closest historically with laxer emission standards. And it only had 10 more ft. lbs of torque than the brz, so don't even think about small displacement turbos, they put out huge torque for their hp. Beefier torque needs beefier everything. If it were so easy to make a <3000lb >300hp <30k car you think people wouldn't make it? Go look at the actual weights of modern cars. Safety standards hurts.

"light weight" is a luxury of MR cars or kit cars or cars of the past with shitty tires, no safety standards, and no torque. You can't have everything. it's like a line at the budget trade off. And if you hear what the actual bean counters and engineers at toyota are saying, they think they chose the wrong point in the line. It currently goes like, miata -> twins -> nissan z, bmw's -> mustang/camaro. And toyota thinks the market segment that needs catering to is under the miata. same with honda with the s660. I really wonder what the heck nissan is going to do with the z car. I can't see a good niche for it.

I don't think people are asking for much when to comes to power, even just 20hp more would satisfy a lot of people, and this engine has shown that potential with the current aftermarket. Here are some options that I think would make people happy:

1. Offer a stripper model of the FRS like they do in Japan like the GT86 RC. This would offer a car that is 150lbs lighter, cheaper, and more "mod ready" than the current base model offered. I don't think it would sell in big numbers, but it would be a really nice alternative for some people. http://www.supercarexport.eu/cars/to...-gt86-rc-spec/

2. Introduce a revised model with an updated front/rear bumper, along with small tweaks to squeeze some more power out of the car, even if it's only 10-20hp.

3. Offer an OEM TRD supercharger as a dealer installed option like they did with the TC. This would give people the power they want, with the peace of mind of OEM Toyota quality.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

1. Offer a stripper model of the FRS like they do in Japan like the GT86 RC. This would offer a car that is 150lbs lighter, cheaper, and more "mod ready" than the current base model offered. I don't think it would sell in big numbers, but it would be a really nice alternative for some people. http://www.supercarexport.eu/cars/to...-gt86-rc-spec/

I wouldn't mind seeing it to just see to see how it sells. without ac i doubt it would sell enough to make any money. I doubt we will ever see track cars like that in the states.

2. Introduce a revised model with an updated front/rear bumper, along with small tweaks to squeeze some more power out of the car, even if it's only 10-20hp.

I think people are still stuck in the tuner mindset of the 80's and 90's when there was easy hp to be found in non-sports consumer cars. I am highly skeptical there are any "small tweaks" that can add power while maintaining OEM reliability and emission standards.

3. Offer an OEM TRD supercharger as a dealer installed option like they did with the TC. This would give people the power they want, with the peace of mind of OEM Toyota quality.

This is the thing that I always see that I don't understand. Are they going to design a one-off transmission to go with this supercharger? they don't have a rwd manual offering for that kind of torque. What drivetrain parts are they going to use? are people going to be willing to pay like $40k and 300lbs for a custom produced and installed transmission and drivetrain just for an oem warranty and toyota reliability?