Innovate (Sprintex) Supercharger Owners Topic

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by sam69

So your saying that 19 psi isn't enough boost to lower the comp ratio and you wouldn't see any benefit from lower the comp ?

I think sw20kosh is way more on track with his posts .

The 335 can pump more than 19 psi, I believe it's good for +2 bar which is quite substantial .

see post 5908

[stockysnail]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I hear 2 distinctly different squeaks. The lower frequency seems to correspond with the belt label passing over one of the flat idle pulleys. The higher frequency squeak is disturbing. That sounds like dry metal-to-metal contact.

Are you absolutely certain all of the idler pulley bearings, including the tensioner pulley, are in good health?

What, if anything, happens to the sound when the A/C compressor is engaged?

I have a dry metal to metal contact type of whine every now and then on deceleration and only for a second. Sounds sort of similar to a metal grinder grinding metal for a second. I was able to get rid of the other squeak with a new black Gates belt K061015. I just received the new idler pulley from Australia and put it on today but I doubt that's where the dry metal sound is coming from. I can't get it to do it any other way other than deceleration so my worry is the twin screw blades are either resonating or doing something worrysome, or the main pulley or spindle, but like I said I have no way of figuring it out or reproducing it reliably.

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by stockysnail

I have a dry metal to metal contact type of whine every now and then on deceleration and only for a second. Sounds sort of similar to a metal grinder grinding metal for a second. I was able to get rid of the other squeak with a new black Gates belt K061015. I just received the new idler pulley from Australia and put it on today but I doubt that's where the dry metal sound is coming from. I can't get it to do it any other way other than deceleration so my worry is the twin screw blades are either resonating or doing something worrysome, or the main pulley or spindle, but like I said I have no way of figuring it out or reproducing it reliably.

I used to get that squeak on deceleration as well. After ruling out pulley issues, I was worried the charger itself was faulty, but after changing to a much tighter belt the noise went away entirely. If there were issues with the twin screws the squeaks would still be there regardless of belt.

[Thorpedo]

Shoutout to @sw20kosh for taking this explanation on, great work. Those looking at which FI kit to use should have this thread as a mandatory reading :p

I know it is another variable, but in all my shopping around for kits, IAT has always been really important to me due to our engine's CR. The lower the IAT is, the more inherent knock resistance and with that comes the ability to run (slightly) more boost OR run more timing advance at the same level of boost. This is one aspect that lets kits like PTuning's run head and shoulders above the rest of the pack in terms of power output.

[Xero-Limit]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

The basic idea is if you want to run higher psi (like the psi that the 335 pumps out) you can't stick with the 12.5:1 CR and hope to make big power and/or keep the motor together. By lowering the CR you are allowing for knock threshold to be raised and the ignition timing advance levels to be brought back up so you can efficiently make more power with the boost it is delivering.

Here is another way of looking at it:

Sprintex335 @ 15 psi + 12.5 CR = 270 whp <---- limited by knock
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 12.5 CR = 270 whp <---- because you are limited already by knock you have to reduce ignition timing drastically so you actually don't gain
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 10.0 CR = 330 whp <---- you lose a little bit of power due to the drop in CR, BUT you can gain a ton of power because you can advance the ignition timing back up to normal levels (as close as you can to MBT without seeing knock) Maximum brake torque - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
]

Yes and no. Assuming MBT for both, 19 psi will make more power than 15 psi even if you take 5 degrees of timing out. More air = more power, and MBT will change with load. IF 19 psi makes so much heat that you pull out excessive timing, then you will make less power. But this will be in the region of 0-5, maybe even negative advance. And I wouldn't expect to see that until you overspin the blower by using a 70mm pulley. We see this on the 210 especially.

If you are running 12 degrees of ignition advance or more, you are not that close to the knock threshold. The closer to 0, the closer to "boom." You have to remember that valve timing, air fuel ratio, and other factors determine final ignition timing. So tuner A may end up running a 5 degree difference in timing over tuner B based on what those other parameters are.

So to sum up my findings in the other thread, 19 psi leaves us running a high enough timing number without imminent disaster that I think the setup can work fine for some folks. With a bigger pulley, it will work really good on pump.

What you describe otherwise is very accurate...for standard port injection motors with perhaps less efficient head designs. What we see with direct injection turns a lot of that stuff on its head. 5 years ago if someone told me you can run 12.5 CR at 9 psi or more on pump gas reliably I would have laughed. Today that's the default for most kits, and we're running 19 psi and still wondering where that ceiling is. What I'm starting to think here is that with this combo and the right tuning, the only limitations will be drivetrain, quality of the motor from subaru, and overall tensile strength of the rods and how much force the ring lands will take. Bearings are a concern as well since the harder you hammer them the greater the chance it will spin. But that you can see on both pump gas and e85, and there are several cars pushing 300 torque or more on stock motors. Some pop, some haven't (yet). I think this party is just getting started.

[stockysnail]

Originally Posted by Fizz

I used to get that squeak on deceleration as well. After ruling out pulley issues, I was worried the charger itself was faulty, but after changing to a much tighter belt the noise went away entirely. If there were issues with the twin screws the squeaks would still be there regardless of belt.

Do you have the smaller belt part number from gates so I don't have to search for an hour? Thank you.

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by stockysnail

Do you have the smaller belt part number from gates so I don't have to search for an hour? Thank you.

It's K061010 but you'll need a 69mm charger pulley as it's a tight fit.

Alternatively you could try sticking with current belt and 75mm charger pulley, but go with a larger idler pulley. I tried the Nuline EP121 and it tightened up everything. But I still had some squeaks with this setup, although it wasn't as bad as before.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

Yes and no. Assuming MBT for both, 19 psi will make more power than 15 psi even if you take 5 degrees of timing out. More air = more power, and MBT will change with load. IF 19 psi makes so much heat that you pull out excessive timing, then you will make less power. But this will be in the region of 0-5, maybe even negative advance. And I wouldn't expect to see that until you overspin the blower by using a 70mm pulley. We see this on the 210 especially.

If you are running 12 degrees of ignition advance or more, you are not that close to the knock threshold. The closer to 0, the closer to "boom." You have to remember that valve timing, air fuel ratio, and other factors determine final ignition timing. So tuner A may end up running a 5 degree difference in timing over tuner B based on what those other parameters are.

So to sum up my findings in the other thread, 19 psi leaves us running a high enough timing number without imminent disaster that I think the setup can work fine for some folks. With a bigger pulley, it will work really good on pump.

What you describe otherwise is very accurate...for standard port injection motors with perhaps less efficient head designs. What we see with direct injection turns a lot of that stuff on its head. 5 years ago if someone told me you can run 12.5 CR at 9 psi or more on pump gas reliably I would have laughed. Today that's the default for most kits, and we're running 19 psi and still wondering where that ceiling is. What I'm starting to think here is that with this combo and the right tuning, the only limitations will be drivetrain, quality of the motor from subaru, and overall tensile strength of the rods and how much force the ring lands will take. Bearings are a concern as well since the harder you hammer them the greater the chance it will spin. But that you can see on both pump gas and e85, and there are several cars pushing 300 torque or more on stock motors. Some pop, some haven't (yet). I think this party is just getting started.

Good stuff Mike! I eagerly await you pushing the envelope and running this beast on 93 pump. Bigger pulleys would be fantastic to see.

It would pretty much be a guaranteed 'no way in hell' on our terrible ACN91 octane here. You would have to retard SO much.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Fizz

It's K061010 but you'll need a 69mm charger pulley as it's a tight fit.

Alternatively you could try sticking with current belt and 75mm charger pulley, but go with a larger idler pulley. I tried the Nuline EP121 and it tightened up everything. But I still had some squeaks with this setup, although it wasn't as bad as before.

I've been thinking this for a while but haven't mentioned it because it's not exactly kosher.

What if you press the roll pin out of the tension arm only to install the belt? I don't think an extra 5 degrees would yield the spring. Should be ok as long as the tensioner is not operating at that angle, no?

[BobbyBlue86]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

Yes and no. Assuming MBT for both, 19 psi will make more power than 15 psi even if you take 5 degrees of timing out. More air = more power, and MBT will change with load. IF 19 psi makes so much heat that you pull out excessive timing, then you will make less power. But this will be in the region of 0-5, maybe even negative advance. And I wouldn't expect to see that until you overspin the blower by using a 70mm pulley. We see this on the 210 especially.

If you are running 12 degrees of ignition advance or more, you are not that close to the knock threshold. The closer to 0, the closer to "boom." You have to remember that valve timing, air fuel ratio, and other factors determine final ignition timing. So tuner A may end up running a 5 degree difference in timing over tuner B based on what those other parameters are.

So to sum up my findings in the other thread, 19 psi leaves us running a high enough timing number without imminent disaster that I think the setup can work fine for some folks. With a bigger pulley, it will work really good on pump.

What you describe otherwise is very accurate...for standard port injection motors with perhaps less efficient head designs. What we see with direct injection turns a lot of that stuff on its head. 5 years ago if someone told me you can run 12.5 CR at 9 psi or more on pump gas reliably I would have laughed. Today that's the default for most kits, and we're running 19 psi and still wondering where that ceiling is. What I'm starting to think here is that with this combo and the right tuning, the only limitations will be drivetrain, quality of the motor from subaru, and overall tensile strength of the rods and how much force the ring lands will take. Bearings are a concern as well since the harder you hammer them the greater the chance it will spin. But that you can see on both pump gas and e85, and there are several cars pushing 300 torque or more on stock motors. Some pop, some haven't (yet). I think this party is just getting started.

So @sw20kosh what kind of effects would you see if you lowered the CR on the 210+. Would you be able to see higher numbers? I think the best I've seen is around 300 hp on E85. Or is this the higher limit of the 210+ regardless...

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by BobbyBlue86

So @sw20kosh what kind of effects would you see if you lowered the CR on the 210+. Would you be able to see higher numbers? I think the best I've seen is around 300 hp on E85. Or is this the higher limit of the 210+ regardless...

I wouldn't lower CR for the 210 unit as the 210 unit is close to maxed out at 12 psi. This boost is within the realm of "acceptable" for this particular engine.

When it comes to E85 you have to completely change your way of thinking about this. E85 basically doesn't have knock threshold. You are not limited by knock with E85.

The 210 unit maxes out at ~300 whp on E85 not because of knock, but because of the 210's flow limitations.

[stockysnail]

Originally Posted by Fizz

It's K061010 but you'll need a 69mm charger pulley as it's a tight fit.

Alternatively you could try sticking with current belt and 75mm charger pulley, but go with a larger idler pulley. I tried the Nuline EP121 and it tightened up everything. But I still had some squeaks with this setup, although it wasn't as bad as before.

I have the car tuned on the 70mm pulley, so switching back to the 75mm might not be good without a retune. I just put on the new Idler pulley last night, NuLine Engine Pulley EP075, but haven't driven the car yet. If the new idler pulley doesn't take care of the occasional metal grind noise on decel (doubtful), then I'll try the belt you mentioned.

The sound wasn't always there and didn't change anything when it started happening so hopefully nothing is wearing out.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by stockysnail

I have the car tuned on the 70mm pulley, so switching back to the 75mm might not be good without a retune. I just put on the new Idler pulley last night, NuLine Engine Pulley EP075, but haven't driven the car yet. If the new idler pulley doesn't take care of the occasional metal grind noise on decel (doubtful), then I'll try the belt you mentioned.

The sound wasn't always there and didn't change anything when it started happening so hopefully nothing is wearing out.

The way FI is tuned is it is tuned up to a certain PSI and everything under that psi is tuned. It has to be. You aren't always at 12 psi. For example, sometimes you are half throttle at 5k rpms and not generating full boost. etc.

If you are tuned for 12 psi, then turning the boost down to 9 psi is fine. The ecu will see lower load and adjust accordingly. The issue comes when you increase the boost past what you are tuned for.

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by stockysnail

I have the car tuned on the 70mm pulley, so switching back to the 75mm might not be good without a retune. I just put on the new Idler pulley last night, NuLine Engine Pulley EP075, but haven't driven the car yet. If the new idler pulley doesn't take care of the occasional metal grind noise on decel (doubtful), then I'll try the belt you mentioned.

The sound wasn't always there and didn't change anything when it started happening so hopefully nothing is wearing out.

With the 69mm pulley and shorter belt (everything else stock) it was a squeeze to get the belt on. But I managed to do it with one hand holding down the breaker bar for tensioner pulley, and slip on the belt with my other hand.

But I'm sure with the help of another pair of hands you can coax the belt on even with the 70mm pulley.