Twins are slow? Not as slow as these cars!

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

The evidence seems overwhelmingly clear that switching even to average MP summer tires makes a notable difference, and to EP summer tires makes a huge difference.

- Sport Auto tested the GT86 at 1:21 s at Hockenheimring short on stock Michelin Primacy HP's, and 1:19 s on Bridgestone RE050A's.

- RT tested the FR-S at 1:29 s at Spring Mountain on stock Michelin Primacy HP's, and 1:27 s on D1SS's.

Because it's arguable whether or not spending >$800 on rubber is actually worth two seconds/lap around a racetrack to the average enthusiast. Let alone if they are even capable of extracting the full 2 seconds given they are likely several seconds off the maximum pace of the Michelin Primacy's.

If you are actually competing, legitimately trying to find tenths of a second in your lap time then yes, absolutely the tires must be upgraded, for the guy going to his first track day: run the piss out of the Primacy's first, you'll learn so much more. AND if you already have a decent amount of car control and even armchair quarterback racecraft coming in odds are you'll pass some of those middle aged guys with their first Porsche or Corvette as they take the pedal to the floor for the first time (hell some don't even do it after a whole day of instruction).

No argument that any true performance tire is an upgrade, just that for the amount of shit piled onto the Michelins as everybody and their grandmother kept repeating 'prius tyres lol' they are a decent starting tire.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by totopo

I said compared to other UHP tires. The reason I said that is most of the cars in its class, and most of the ones i posted comes from the factory with OEM UHP tires. So if you want to compare lap times, then the tires in those cars around it driven by pobst are pretty similar. Tire rack swapped the primacy HP's with a UHP tire and basically got the same time. They swapped it to an EP tire and simillary shaved 2 seconds off ~1:30ish

As opposed to say the super cheater viper ACR SRT 10 which came with "OEM" Michelin sport cup tires, which are not streetable.

or that Seat Leon Cupra Nurburgring time with its optional michelin pilot cup 2

I feel like the whole Nurburgring lap time chases has made high end cars come out with ridiculous OEM tires. I'm just waiting for the first manufacturer to claim that Hoosier R7's are the "OEM" tire and that a reasonable EP tire is an "option."

2 seconds to MP on a 1:30 lap is pretty reasonable from a UHP tire. 2 seconds off 1:30 on EP is kind of... disappointing really. Even though the primacy's are rated as a GT summer, they don't do too poorly on the FR-s.

Two points you may have overlooked:

- RE050A's are comparable to summer tires that cars in its class are fitted with.

- 2 seconds a lap on a 1-1.5 min lap is a huge difference.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Because it's arguable whether or not spending >$800 on rubber is actually worth two seconds/lap around a racetrack to the average enthusiast. Let alone if they are even capable of extracting the full 2 seconds given they are likely several seconds off the maximum pace of the Michelin Primacy's.

If you are actually competing, legitimately trying to find tenths of a second in your lap time then yes, absolutely the tires must be upgraded, for the guy going to his first track day: run the piss out of the Primacy's first, you'll learn so much more. AND if you already have a decent amount of car control and even armchair quarterback racecraft coming in odds are you'll pass some of those middle aged guys with their first Porsche or Corvette as they take the pedal to the floor for the first time (hell some don't even do it after a whole day of instruction).

No argument that any true performance tire is an upgrade, just that for the amount of shit piled onto the Michelins as everybody and their grandmother kept repeating 'prius tyres lol' they are a decent starting tire.

That's not really what we're debating though. He said upgrading tires doesn't really make a difference. It definitely makes a difference, and that's been shown whether switching to MP or EP tires. Whether that difference matters to a track novice doing intro HPDEs or can be exploited by them is a tangential point.

I agree with you though, for the average guy daily driving or for a track novice just starting out, there's no need to worry about laptimes.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

That's not really what we're debating though. He said upgrading tires doesn't really make a difference. It definitely makes a difference, and that's been shown whether switching to MP or EP tires. Whether that difference matters to a track novice doing intro HPDEs or can be exploited by them is a tangential point.

I agree with you though, for the average guy daily driving or for a track novice just starting out, there's no need to worry about laptimes.

Ha HA Ha
You guys keep debating about tires and some new guy shows up with a 1000 word thesis on "contact patch" we will know Ubersurber is back in disguise! He would not be able to resist a good tire debate.

[continuecrushing]

am I too late for the discussion about rubbers?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Shutter

am I too late for the discussion about rubbers?

Well we can certainly keep going.
I prefer the multicoloured ones myself

[Caspeed]

Originally Posted by totopo

No, the times on fastestlaps hammers in the fact that the number one mod by far (even over tires) is driver.

Look at who drove that 1:30 time, randy pobst, a pro driver. If you only look at pro driver times, the twins sit about where you would expect by hp and hp/weight


41. Subaru WRX 1:27.33 '14 272 / 1503 Randy Pobst
47. Ford Mustang EcoBoost 1:27.85 '15 0 / 0 Randy Pobst
50. Ford Focus ST 1:28.40 '12 250 / 1432 Randy Pobst
52. Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 V6 GDI 1:28.71 '12 350 / 1580 Randy Pobst
56. Ford Mustang V6 1:29.09 '11 309 / 1571 Randy Pobst
57. Hyundai Genesis Coupe 2.0 TCI 1:29.12 '12 275 / 1550 Randy Pobst
63. Mazda 3 MPS 1:29.51 '09 260 / 1456 Randy Pobst
65. Subaru BRZ 1:30.32 '12 200 / 1220 Randy Pobst
72. Scion FR-S 1:31.15 '13 200 / 1251 Randy Pobst
74. VW Golf GTI Mk. VI 1:31.47 '09 211 / 1318 Randy Pobst
80. VW Jetta GLI 1:32.53 '11 200 / 1436 Randy Pobst

The original FR-S was balanced more for fun than for track times. It had more of a oversteer bias. I think these fr-s and brz times was on the same day. That might be part of the reason why the fr-s modified its suspension to bring it in line with the brz.

A lot of the times on fastest laps are some random amateur driver because that's the only person who has bothered to time their lap, or some random magazine reviewer.

The second most important issue on fastestlaps that is ignored is tires. That's why basically lap times get better every year. And no matter what people here say, the primacy HP gets pretty decent laps time, comprable to the twins swapped to other UHP tires.

If you look further, when there are multiple times for a car, the pro drivers can beat amateur drivers by like 5 seconds.

4. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 1:20.43 '11 512 / 1394 Randy Pobst
17. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 1:24.28 '11 512 / 1394

12. Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 1:23.48 '10 558 / 1712 Randy Pobst
40. Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 1:27.30 '13 659 / 1750 EdMunds InsideLine

VIR:
9. Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 2:52.38 141 '12 588 / 1838 Aaron Link
19. Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 2:57.50 137 '12 588 / 1838 C&D

Big willow:
27. Acura TL Type S 1:36.67 '07 290 / 1666 Keiichi Tsuchiya
29. Shelby GT500 1:36.80 '06 507 / 1807
56. Shelby GT500 Super Snake 1:40.50 '10 760 / 1790

I had the pleasure of watching Randy Pobst back in the day when he was AutoXing a Datsun S2000 (maybe it was a S1600??). He was wicked fast then and seems to still be today. It's good to see a Florida boy do well.

[funwheeldrive]

Every week there is a thread made where people try to convince themselves that these cars aren't slow.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Every week there is a thread made where people try to convince themselves that these cars aren't slow.

They aren't slow. They just aren't fast!

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by totopo

No, the times on fastestlaps hammers in the fact that the number one mod by far (even over tires) is driver....

...and knowledge of the track. How many times has Pobst ran that particular track? 100's potentially 1000's of times. That by itself will carve seconds if not dozens of seconds off the time of any car.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ha HA Ha
You guys keep debating about tires and some new guy shows up with a 1000 word thesis on "contact patch" we will know Ubersurber is back in disguise! He would not be able to resist a good tire debate.

Haha I had forgotten all about that guy until you brought that up. Wonder if he still lurks here.

[babydriver]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Because it's arguable whether or not spending >$800 on rubber is actually worth two seconds/lap around a racetrack to the average enthusiast. Let alone if they are even capable of extracting the full 2 seconds given they are likely several seconds off the maximum pace of the Michelin Primacy's.

There is no question in my mind that the weak link in the handling is the stock tire. I don't expect to get too many people to disagree with that point on this forum. The rear tires seem to break loose all the time in sharp cornering with throttle applied.

I will wait, however, until the stock tires wear out. Still, have you noticed that the Primacy tire ($182 each "on special" at Tire Rack) costs more than the Pilot Super Sport ($135 each, regular price at Tire Rack)? Why on earth would you pay more for a less grippy replacement tire? Certainly, I plan to upgrade then. Others may want to replace their tires now and the cost may not matter to them.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by babydriver

I will wait, however, until the stock tires wear out. Still, have you noticed that the Primacy tire ($182 each "on special" at Tire Rack) costs more than the Pilot Super Sport ($135 each, regular price at Tire Rack)? Why on earth would you pay more for a less grippy replacement tire? Certainly, I plan to upgrade then. Others may want to replace their tires now and the cost may not matter to them.

Every third comment on upgrades and going faster is saying to dump the stock tire ASAP, as mentioned above it isn't that bad. Very straightforward statement/opinion.

In theory, the Primacy HP tires have a lower tread wear rating than the Pilot Super Sports, reading the description the Primacy's are a lot more specialized and targeted as OEM for entry level luxury cars (Audi's and Merc's) whereas the PSS are targeted at budget enthusiasts looking for an accessible all around tire that they can AutoX on and then commute to work on Monday with. Not everything automotive is priced by how fast it goes, there's a lot of development in those low rolling resistance tires.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ot+Super+Sport

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....del=Primacy+HP

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by babydriver

There is no question in my mind that the weak link in the handling is the stock tire. I don't expect to get too many people to disagree with that point on this forum. The rear tires seem to break loose all the time in sharp cornering with throttle applied.

I'm going to disagree with you on the weak link comment, because the weak link in the handling is most certainly not the tires, it's the differential.

Just because you can break loose tires in the corners with throttle doesn't make it a bad tire, it just means your driving style is too aggressive for the tires given the steering and throttle inputs you are making.

Sorry, these "weak-link" tires run 5 seconds faster than my modified, "better tire" car at Streets of Willow. Primacy HPs are great tires.

-alex