First Manual Car

[Stang70Fastback]

As with you, I plan on keeping this car a long time, so I don't want to be doing anything stupid. So it's as I suspected; I'm asking the synchros to do too much. In that case, double clutching should solve the problem, right? Clutch in, neutral, clutch out, clutch in, 1st gear, profit?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

As with you, I plan on keeping this car a long time, so I don't want to be doing anything stupid. So it's as I suspected; I'm asking the synchros to do too much. In that case, double clutching should solve the problem, right? Clutch in, neutral, clutch out, clutch in, 1st gear, profit?

Clutch in, neutral, clutch out, blip throttle-clutch in, 1st gear.

Easy-peezy. Slips in like butta.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Jyn

Question, is just downshift rev-matching okay or do you have to double clutch? I usually drop from 6th to 4th or 3rd as follows: 6th -> clutch in -> shift to 3rd -> rev- match -> clutch out.

Haven't had an issue that way. I tried double clutching today (i.e. - clutch in -> neutral -> clutch out -> rev match -> clutch in) and it just seemed too cumbersome for normal commuting.

If skipping gears downshifting without double-clutching, it's MUCH easier on the target syncro if one expedites sequentially going through the gears to spool up the input shaft. That way, each syncro does a little work to spool up all that rotating mass.

[Xuningshen]

Originally Posted by NickTC

Your car behaves very differently from mine. I'm at 2200 miles and I can shift into first without too much hassle when I'm going 7MPH or below. 8-10MPH is also doable, but a little more hesitant.

Mine behaves exactly like yours. I dont like going into 2nd gear under 10mph because it lugs the engine too much. just hit 8k miles.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Xuningshen

Mine behaves exactly like yours. I dont like going into 2nd gear under 10mph because it lugs the engine too much. just hit 8k miles.

^^^this^^^ Keep that oil pressure up. 1500 RPM is ok as long as you milk it up through 2000, IMHO.

[Jyn]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

If skipping gears downshifting without double-clutching, it's MUCH easier on the target syncro if one expedites sequentially going through the gears to spool up the input shaft. That way, each syncro does a little work to spool up all that rotating mass.

interdasting. I'll try that out, thanks.

[stugray]

I have always wondered what happens during a double clutch, so lets work through it.

Lets say you are at 3000 RPM in 4th to downshift to 3rd you:
A- Depress the clutch: this decouples the engine from the trans
move gear from 4th to neutral: slider ring decoupled final drive from input shaft.
The input shaft is now spinning down under friction (was just at 3000 RPM input).
B- While shifting out of gear you started to bring the engine revs UP in anticipation of the shift.
C- You release the clutch: this recouples the engine to the trans input shaft so you are bringing the shaft up to whatever speed the engine is at
you continue to raise the engine (and input shaft up in RPM) while in neutral.
D- Now you depress the clutch again decoupling the engine & input shaft.
E- Now you move the slider into 3rd gear where the synchros guarantee input shaft at ~4000 RPM before engagement.
F- Now you release the clutch and are in 3rd at 4000 RPM


Now lets work through a regular shift:
You are at 3000 RPM in 4th to downshift to 3rd you:
A- Depress the clutch: this decouples the engine from the trans
move gear from 4th to neutral: slider ring decoupled final drive from input shaft.
The input shaft is now spinning down under friction (was just at 3000 RPM input).
B- While shifting out of gear you started to bring the engine revs UP in anticipation of the shift.
C - you move the shift lever to 3rd and the sychros bring the input shaft speed up to match the speed of the 3rd gear (4000 RPM).

D- Now you release the clutch and are in 3rd at 4000 RPM

I just have a hard time believing, that a human can negotiate all of the above in the split second that I can perform a "regular" downshift.
In fact I think I can demonstrate a downshift with no clutch about the same speed as a double clutch.

I have a theory that people who are really in tune with their car do not even disengage the clutch all the way during every shift, but dont even realize it until the rare time where you grind and wonder "what was up with that...."

Not only do I not get the theory behind the double clutch, but I have tried it, and I see no advantage whatsoever except to make me shift slower which makes it smoother.
That is the same effect as just shifting slower without double clutching.

So I can see a slight advantage where there is slightly less wear on the synchros. If you are so worried about your synchros that you will use an antiquate driving technique, then just do the whole trans a favor and dont drive so much.

And all of the examples above about having trouble downshifting into 1st - it's like the doctor says "if it hurts when you do that, stop doing that".

In the parts diagram for the trans, 1st gear is the ONLY gear that has a part called a "1st gear lockout". I wonder what that is for?
Maybe to make it hard to downshift to first because they dont what you to do that.

I never see a need to downshift to 1st.
If the car is even moving at all, I can get going again in 2nd without bogging much.

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

You know I'm not talking about the track. What's the point of bringing that up again? No one double-clutches on the track unless they've acquired one of Skip Barber's old cars.

Because if it was a technique that had any benefit whatsoever, I think I would hear about someone using it at the track. The truth is - there is absolutely zero reason to use double clutching on a modern trans unless you are doing it purely to slowdown your shifts (it performs that function well) to reduce wear on your trans.

I have a method to reduce wear on your tires: Every time you stop it with hot tires, put it up on jackstands

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Jyn

Question, is just downshift rev-matching okay or do you have to double clutch?

No. You absolutely positively do not have to double-clutch this car.

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

On a related note, as I am unaware of the mechanics behind the first gear lockout, if I'm sitting here trying to shove it into first gear, am I putting stress on something, and wearing out something I shouldn't be?

Yes. If you force it, you are putting unnecessary wear on the synchronizer.

I posted a video on the preceding page. Watch at least the first 10-12 minutes of it. It will show you what's happening inside the transmission. I like this vid in particular because it does a great job of explaining how the synchronizer rings work.

[pinski]

Originally Posted by stugray

I have a theory that people who are really in tune with their car do not even disengage the clutch all the way during every shift, but dont even realize it until the rare time where you grind and wonder "what was up with that...."

Not only do I not get the theory behind the double clutch, but I have tried it, and I see no advantage whatsoever except to make me shift slower which makes it smoother.
That is the same effect as just shifting slower without double clutching.

So I can see a slight advantage where there is slightly less wear on the synchros. If you are so worried about your synchros that you will use an antiquate driving technique, then just do the whole trans a favor and dont drive so much.

Originally Posted by extrashaky

No. You absolutely positively do not have to double-clutch this car.

Totally agree - there's no reason whatsoever to double-clutch this car. Yes, you may put a bit of wear on the synchros, but you're using the car as it was designed to be used. If Subaru/Toyota wanted you to double-clutch, they'd have given us a transmission without synchros.

Just don't force it in gear (like the whole first gear and slow speed discussion) and you'll be fine.

Now, back to the topic of the OP's post - I think this car would be a piece of cake to learn on. This is my fourth manual transmission vehicle and the second easiest to drive after the Miata. Light clutch, easy to modulate, good feel.

[Stang70Fastback]

I disagree with the whole "I--don't-think-you-should-use-first-unless-stopped" thing. Quite frankly, yes, you can use second even from a standstill, but it really sucks. Say what you want but the engine does bog down and lug at that speed, and it also sounds like a tractor. I want to be able to shift into 1st when I'm rolling up on a stop sign at 5 MPH without having to come to a complete stop BEFORE I can slot it into gear.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by stugray

I just have a hard time believing, that a human can negotiate all of the above in the split second that I can perform a "regular" downshift.
In fact I think I can demonstrate a downshift with no clutch about the same speed as a double clutch.

That's because it can't be done. I'm not playing speed racer. I'm driving conservatively.
I can downshift faster without the clutch than just shifting normally but that doesn't make it a good practice. ...unless I'm turning a hot lap.

Originally Posted by stugray

I have a theory that people who are really in tune with their car do not even disengage the clutch all the way during every shift, but dont even realize it until the rare time where you grind and wonder "what was up with that...."

That's not being in tune. That's being sloppy.

Originally Posted by stugray

So I can see a slight advantage where there is slightly less wear on the synchros. If you are so worried about your synchros that you will use an antiquate driving technique, then just do the whole trans a favor and dont drive so much.

And all of the examples above about having trouble downshifting into 1st - it's like the doctor says "if it hurts when you do that, stop doing that".

Now you're just being d!ckish.

Originally Posted by stugray

In the parts diagram for the trans, 1st gear is the ONLY gear that has a part called a "1st gear lockout". I wonder what that is for?
Maybe to make it hard to downshift to first because they dont what you to do that.

Is it that restrict ball? I welcome an actual lesson.

[Jyn]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

No. You absolutely positively do not have to double-clutch this car.

I realized after posting that the question was a bit vague, but the other guy seemed to get it. What I mean was "when skipping gears downshifting, can you simply go straight to the lower gear or is it recommended to double clutch?" Basically my real world example was 6th to 3rd, because I seem to find myself doing that every few days.

[Stang70Fastback]

You can skip as many gears as you want if you properly rev match. Just adds 0.0001 extra wear to the synchros. If you go straight from 6th to 3rd without matching engine speed or slowing down a lot and just slam it into gear you risk locking the rear wheels, but that's about it (obviously assuming you aren't going into 3rd at a high-enough speed to over-rev it.)

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Jyn

Basically my real world example was 6th to 3rd, because I seem to find myself doing that every few days.

I'm having a difficult time imagining a situation when I would need to go from 6th to 3rd.