First Manual Car

[NickTC]

Originally Posted by stugray

You dont need to double clutch AT ALL. just shifting slower will reduce wear on the synchros.

So we're in agreement then? Not sure why you phrased that like you were correcting me.
For the record, I'm not advocating double clutching to shift, that's completely useless on any modern vehicle. I'm just saying that doing it will reduce wear on your synchros.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by RacerX

Wow, I really hope you're joking. Otherwise people might take you seriously.

Not joking in the least. Which part are you confused about?

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

WTF, Stu? I'm that guy. Mastering no-clutch shifts has absolutely nothing to do with syncro preservation. You are way off base. Give it up, please.

I am taking this point because this is a thread about someone who wonders if they can learn to drive stick in a twin.
There is absolutely zero reason to confuse the subject by talking about a useless and antiquated technique such as double clutch shifting a syncho transmission.

That would be like telling the guy he better be able to heel toe shifting by the time he gets the car home.

I have taught two of my teenage children to drive stick in this car.
I never mention double clutching or heel toe and they both drive it just fine not knowing about such a thing.
The first of my three granddaughters is next.

I DID however demonstrate clutchless shifting so that they understood where proper shift points are.

My wife's passat is much harder to learn stick in than the BRZ.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by stugray

Not joking in the least. Which part are you confused about?



I am taking this point because this is a thread about someone who wonders if they can learn to drive stick in a twin.
There is absolutely zero reason to confuse the subject by talking about a useless and antiquated technique such as double clutch shifting a syncho transmission.

That would be like telling the guy he better be able to heel toe shifting by the time he gets the car home.

I have taught two of my teenage children to drive stick in this car.
I never mention double clutching or heel toe and they both drive it just fine not knowing about such a thing.
The first of my three granddaughters is next.

I DID however demonstrate clutchless shifting so that they understood where proper shift points are.

My wife's passat is much harder to learn stick in than the BRZ.

I'll meet you halfway, which is what I think what others in this thread meant. It is not necessary to learn how to double-clutch but, especially with a brand new one of these transmissions, it really helps.

Not a dig - perhaps you've forgotten how tight it was when you first started driving it?

You must admit, first gear is tight as hell in this gearbox. I have nearly 7k on the ticker and I still double clutch into both second and first 100% of the time. To refer to it as an antiquated technique is doing an equal disservice to our younger drivers.

I have been driving for 40 years. I learned how to drive clutchless as a kid so I know exactly what you're talking about.

#sportscarlyfe

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I'll meet you halfway, which is what I think what others in this thread meant. It is not necessary to learn how to double-clutch but, especially with a brand new one of these transmissions, it really helps.

Not a dig - perhaps you've forgotten how tight it was when you first started driving it?

I bought mine at 9k miles, has 22k now, and never had to double clutch.

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

You must admit, first gear is tight as hell in this gearbox. I have nearly 7k on the ticker and I still double clutch into both second and first 100% of the time. To refer to it as an antiquated technique is doing an equal disservice to our younger drivers.

I dont think so. I have driven stick in ~50 different kinds of cars and had never even heard of double clutching except in old movies.

See theres one thing that bugs me. you "double clutch" into 1st?
I was always taught to never downshift to 1st except at a complete stop.
So why would you need to double clutch at a stop?

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I have been driving for 40 years. I learned how to drive clutchless as a kid so I know exactly what you're talking about.
#sportscarlyfe

I learned how to drive clutchless in my karman Ghia because the clutch lever broke off and I had to drive the car to school & back for a month before I could afford to fix it.
At stoplights I would shut the car off & put it in first.
Then start the car in gear and off you go....

Then I learned to shift a 914 which is known to have one of the sloppiest shifters known to mankind.

It's all good. It comes down to drivers style.

However, I am around true road racing 6 months of the year, and not once in 5 years of race driving experience has anyone ever mentioned double clutching unless the tranny/overdrive is having a problem.

And that is in cars from 60s-90s and $3k to $250k

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by stugray

See theres one thing that bugs me. you "double clutch" into 1st?
I was always taught to never downshift to 1st except at a complete stop.
So why would you need to double clutch at a stop?

I almost never encounter a situation in which I need to downshift into first gear. The few times I do need it, I'm going so slowly that it slips right in. I can't imagine why anyone would need to double clutch into first. For the new drivers among us, that just sounds like a recipe for over-rev.

One of the cars I learned how to drive in was a 1970 MG Midget. That car does not have a synchronized first gear, so you MUST be sitting at a complete stop to put it in first. That's why people used to be taught not to shift into first while moving, because many cars didn't have synchros on first.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by stugray

I bought mine at 9k miles, has 22k now, and never had to double clutch.

Then your gearbox was already broken-in. Mine is still getting its legs. Again, not once have I referred to it as a requirement. It's disingenuous to continue arguing otherwise.

Originally Posted by stugray

I dont think so. I have driven stick in ~50 different kinds of cars and had never even heard of double clutching except in old movies.

See theres one thing that bugs me. you "double clutch" into 1st?
I was always taught to never downshift to 1st except at a complete stop.
So why would you need to double clutch at a stop?

I was taught both options at childhood. Are you telling me when traffic slows to a crawl you come to a complete stop, shift into first, and then continue? I prefer a quick blip, drop into first, and smoothly continue without impeding my fellow drivers' progress.

Originally Posted by stugray

However, I am around true road racing 6 months of the year, and not once in 5 years of race driving experience has anyone ever mentioned double clutching unless the tranny/overdrive is having a problem.

And that is in cars from 60s-90s and $3k to $250k

You know I'm not talking about the track. What's the point of bringing that up again? No one double-clutches on the track unless they've acquired one of Skip Barber's old cars.

Look, knowledge and skill are always a good thing. Let's just leave it at that.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I almost never encounter a situation in which I need to downshift into first gear. The few times I do need it, I'm going so slowly that it slips right in. I can't imagine why anyone would need to double clutch into first. For the new drivers among us, that just sounds like a recipe for over-rev.

Agreed. New drivers beware.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Are you telling me when traffic slows to a crawl you come to a complete stop, shift into first, and then continue?

I won't speak for him, but for me, that's about the only time I ever downshift into first gear, and even then it's rare because second is geared so low. And even when I do shift into first gear, there is absolutely no need to blip the throttle or double clutch to get into first because I'm basically coasting into it. It slips right in.

And as for the break-in period, mine was a little stiff when I first got it, but never to the point that I had any need to double clutch to make it work. I can't help but think people are needlessly making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. If you actually have to double clutch to get the car into a certain gear, that's probably the car's way of telling you that it shouldn't be in that gear.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I won't speak for him, but for me, that's about the only time I ever downshift into first gear, and even then it's rare because second is geared so low. And even when I do shift into first gear, there is absolutely no need to blip the throttle or double clutch to get into first because I'm basically coasting into it. It slips right in.

And as for the break-in period, mine was a little stiff when I first got it, but never to the point that I had any need to double clutch to make it work. I can't help but think people are needlessly making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. If you actually have to double clutch to get the car into a certain gear, that's probably the car's way of telling you that it shouldn't be in that gear.

Even under 3 MPH it refuses to slip into first. I have to nudge, let go, nudge again, ... and eventually it drops in. Never had a car so finicky before this one.

[NickTC]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Even under 3 MPH it refuses to slip into first. I have to nudge, let go, nudge again, ... and eventually it drops in. Never had a car so finicky before this one.

Your car behaves very differently from mine. I'm at 2200 miles and I can shift into first without too much hassle when I'm going 7MPH or below. 8-10MPH is also doable, but a little more hesitant.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by NickTC

Your car behaves very differently from mine. I'm at 2200 miles and I can shift into first without too much hassle when I'm going 7MPH or below. 8-10MPH is also doable, but a little more hesitant.

Interesting. I've gotten so much into the habit of milking it that I haven't even tried not double-clutching in a while. Hmmmm...

Noted in earnest. I'll report back.

[Jyn]

Question, is just downshift rev-matching okay or do you have to double clutch? I usually drop from 6th to 4th or 3rd as follows: 6th -> clutch in -> shift to 3rd -> rev- match -> clutch out.

Haven't had an issue that way. I tried double clutching today (i.e. - clutch in -> neutral -> clutch out -> rev match -> clutch in) and it just seemed too cumbersome for normal commuting.

[Stang70Fastback]

This is my first manual, but I've also been surprised with how difficult it is to get it into first unless I'm going less than 3-4 MPH. I'm well aware what the RPM needs to be to match revs but the car just won't let me.

On a related note, as I am unaware of the mechanics behind the first gear lockout, if I'm sitting here trying to shove it into first gear, am I putting stress on something, and wearing out something I shouldn't be? In other words, is it the synchros that keep you from shifting into 1st so trying to force it in really messes with them, or is the 1st gear lockout an entirely separate mechanical process and all I'm doing is pushing a lever against a plate or something?

Basically if I am indeed fighting to get it into 1st, am I causing excess wear or am I just pushing against something that won't wear out or get damaged? It's such a weird feeling, and I can hear some whirring when I'm pushing against the lock-out, so I'm wondering what is going on mechanically.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

This is my first manual, but I've also been surprised with how difficult it is to get it into first unless I'm going less than 3-4 MPH. I'm well aware what the RPM needs to be to match revs but the car just won't let me.

On a related note, as I am unaware of the mechanics behind the first gear lockout, if I'm sitting here trying to shove it into first gear, am I putting stress on something, and wearing out something I shouldn't be? In other words, is it the synchros that keep you from shifting into 1st so trying to force it in really messes with them, or is the 1st gear lockout an entirely separate mechanical process and all I'm doing is pushing a lever against a plate or something?

It's not a lockout as much as the syncro doesn't have enough oompf to spool up the input shaft as much as it needs. Try what I do. Nudge - let go - nudge - ... it will eventually spool up and drop in. I just don't like hammering on the synchro because I plan on driving mine forever.

edit: It seems I may be incorrect about the existence of a first-gear lockout.