"Forcing" a gear in during shifting

[alchemy]

Hey guys, the 86 is my first manual car so please bear with me

I've read a lot on guides that gear shifts should feel smooth with no resistance and literally "slide into place" with little force when shifting properly.

Is this meant to happen on the 86? Or is it naturally a notchy feeling car?
I mean I'm pretty sure I'm shifting correctly but there is some (little) resistance to my shifts and they feel notchy. They definitely don't literally slide into place with no force though. And 5-6 is especially hard to get into.

edit: I'm usually shifting at around 3000 RPM

I've also heard that you should never feel like you have to 'force' a gear in during shifting. I don't know if what I'm feeling is me forcing the gear in or it just being a notchy shifter with some resistance? Again, this is my first manual car so I don't really know what to expect.

Is this normal or am I shifting incorrectly?

Thanks guys!

[youcantseeme24]

On this car it is normal to "feel" the gears.....I see you live in Sidney and I have no idea what the temps are there but the colder it is outside it can sometimes be a little stiff untill its fully warmed up.

[phobos512]

The FR-S is my first manual but since having it (I'm about 5,700 mi now) I've driven several different manual cars - a 14 FR-S Monogram, 13 WRX STi, 14 Focus ST, 15 Fiesta ST, 14 Civic Si - and none of them feel like the 86 platform (other than the FR-Ss obviously). The STi was probably the most similar as far as feeling mechanical. The Focus was like driving a big rig - it's throws were very long compared to ours. The Fiesta was the smoothest and the Civic was a close second to the Fiesta in terms of smoothness. Overall the Fiesta was my favorite as far as transmission feel.

In my opinion the transmission in the 86 is very notchy and very picky. Also, stock the clutch pedal position is terrible. The Civic Si had a high clutch pedal as well but not as high as the 86 platform vehicles.

[Ultramaroon]

Technically, it is impossible to instantly shift from one gear to another because there are 2 sets of rotating masses that must be turning at the correct speed before the desired gear can be selected. During a gear change there is always a period of time when the input section must be allowed to either speed up or slow down to match the speed of the output. If gears are skipped, the effect becomes more obvious. Some transmissions are better than others at hiding this from the driver.

Well after the specified break-in period, this transmission remains really picky. It will get much better.

That being said, it's also a good opportunity to develop one's technique.

This all sounds preachy so I'll stop and ask if anyone would like to hear (read?) me continue. Happy to keep going.

[vividracing]

Keep going, very educational. Everyone could benefit from your knowledge.

[tigermack]

Pretty notchy with mine. My friend's STi was a lot smoother. My Mazda was also very smooth.

[jimmillion]

The manual transmission is indeed very notchy slash unforgiving compared to other cars. But it's also very good once you get used to it.

Have you tired shifting with only your finger tips? You'll be surprised how smooth the car can be with a little finesse. Try it, you might be surprised

[Ultramaroon]

Ok, I'm going to intentionally gloss over some of the details. Check out this cutaway of our transmission. Let's focus on the top half. The far left gear is the rear part of the input shaft. Everything to the right is the output section. The shaft at the center of those gears is directly connected to the driveshaft



The arrows indicate the parts that move back and forth. The big outer hooded parts are the shift forks. When you move the gearshift you are moving one of those parts. Those, in turn, fit in the grooves of the hub sleeve.

The parts underneath and adjacent to the hub sleeve are where the magic happens. They are all permanently locked into rotation with the output shaft. When the shift fork applies pressure to the hub sleeve in one direction one of two things can happen.

1. If the hub sleeve and the desired gear are not spinning at the same speed, the synchronizer will apply friction to the gearset in an effort to match speed.

2. If/When speed is matched, the hub sleeve will slip over the synchronizer and into the target gear. Poof, you're in gear.


Let that sink in for a bit. When you push the gearshift in an effort to engage a gear, there is always some effort applied to either speed up or slow down one side to match the speed of the other. Since the output shaft is permanently attached to the driveshaft, the input shaft must speed up or slow down to match. Remember, there's a big clutch disk attached to the input shaft.


From a dead stop:
Unless you're an infinitely patient person, you've felt the "clunk" shifting into first. That's because the spinning clutch disk is suddenly stopped when the hub sleeve drops into gear. There's a little backlash which is the "clunk." If you wait for a second or two after disengaging the clutch you will never get the "clunk" because the input shaft is no longer spinning.


Upshifts:
Consider shifting from any lower gear to a taller gear, The input shaft must slow down. If you jam it fast you are forcing the syncro to slow down the input. If you wait too long in neutral with the clutch disengaged, you've missed that sweet spot. The input shaft will have to speed up.

Practice deliberately shifting to neutral and quickly applying a tiny bit of pressure towards the next higher gear. I typically rest my hand on the console and use one or two fingers around or below the reverse lockout. When the primary shaft spools down on it's own (more or less) the gearshift will literally slip into gear. Skip a gear and without adding more pressure, the effect will become obvious.


Downshifts:
I will get flamed for this. I almost always double clutch my downshifts. What does that mean?

1. clutch disengaged
2. shift to neutral
3. clutch engaged
4. goose the throttle so the engine revs higher than it would in the gear of choice
5. clutch disengaged while the engine is at peak rev (throttle can be released immediately after)
6. slight pressure to chosen gear

Get this sequence down and you will have no trouble downshifting into first while the car is moving. Be careful, though. If you don't rev-match when you engage the clutch you'll get some serious whiplash.


Get good at this and your transmission will last FOREVER.


Last edited by Ultramaroon; 11-05-2014 at 10:32 PM. Reason: clarify step 5 of the downshift

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by jimmillion

The manual transmission is indeed very notchy slash unforgiving compared to other cars. But it's also very good once you get used to it.

Have you tired shifting with only your finger tips? You'll be surprised how smooth the car can be with a little finesse. Try it, you might be surprised

Haha... ^^this^^

[normancw]

Originally Posted by phobos512

In my opinion the transmission in the 86 is very notchy and very picky. Also, stock the clutch pedal position is terrible. The Civic Si had a high clutch pedal as well but not as high as the 86 platform vehicles.

Have you seen the "Easy clutch grab adjustment" DIY?
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8040

[Whatabouteggs]

After a year of this car, I'd say the transmission is excellent if you're driving aggressively at the expense of driving normally or slowly. Probably by design.

The notchiness and weird clutch are magnified when you're in stop and go traffic or just putting around town. I couldn't tell you how many times i've gotten mad at people ahead of me just because they were accelerating at a rate I considered too slow, and were throwing off my rhythm.

However, drive like a psycho and it kinda starts to make sense. Probably not a good daily driver strategy though.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Whatabouteggs

After a year of this car, I'd say the transmission is excellent if you're driving aggressively at the expense of driving normally or slowly. Probably by design.

The notchiness and weird clutch are magnified when you're in stop and go traffic or just putting around town. I couldn't tell you how many times i've gotten mad at people ahead of me just because they were accelerating at a rate I considered too slow, and were throwing off my rhythm.

However, drive like a psycho and it kinda starts to make sense. Probably not a good daily driver strategy though.

I've had passengers remark they can't even feel me shift. It's possible to be smooth. Practice makes perfect. The cool thing is if you can nail it with this car then you can do it with just about any other.

The clutch is truly weird but that can be fixed. Not just a little better, actually fixed. Shameless plug - http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76621

[dem00n]

Driving a manual without any sort of harsh movements is a true art and isn't something you'll be able to replicate in every car within 5 minutes.

Not to get into too much details, but when a car has worn out shocks and it gets to that jiggly stage, that's the best time to drive stick. You're forced to be smooth, or any sort of wrong throttle/clutch inputs will be noticed. But of course, I'm not asking you to go buy a Saab with 120K on it.

But here's something i realized, driving a manual in a performance mindset is different from being smooth and jerk free on the street. There's always a sacrifice.

Choose your compromise.

[alchemy]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Ok, I'm going to intentionally gloss over some of the details. Check out this cutaway of our transmission. Let's focus on the top half. That's the output section. The shaft at the center of those gears is directly connected to the driveshaft



The arrows indicate the parts that move back and forth. The big outer hooded parts are the shift forks. When you move the gearshift you are moving one of those parts. Those, in turn, fit in the grooves of the hub sleeve.

The parts underneath and adjacent to the hub sleeve are where the magic happens. They are all permanently locked into rotation with the output shaft. When the shift fork applies pressure to the hub sleeve in one direction one of two things can happen.

1. If the hub sleeve and the desired gear are not spinning at the same speed, the synchronizer will apply friction to the gearset in an effort to match speed.

2. If/When speed is matched, the hub sleeve will slip over the synchronizer and into the target gear. Poof, you're in gear.


Let that sink in for a bit. When you push the gearshift in an effort to engage a gear, there is always some effort applied to either speed up or slow down one side to match the speed of the other. Since the output shaft is permanently attached to the driveshaft, the input shaft must speed up or slow down to match. Remember, there's a big clutch disk attached to the input shaft.


From a dead stop:
Unless you're an infinitely patient person, you've felt the "clunk" shifting into first. That's because the spinning clutch disk is suddenly stopped when the hub sleeve drops into gear. There's a little backlash which is the "clunk." If you wait for a second or two after disengaging the clutch you will never get the "clunk" because the input shaft is no longer spinning.


Upshifts:
Consider shifting from any lower gear to a taller gear, The input shaft must slow down. If you jam it fast you are forcing the syncro to slow down the input. If you wait too long in neutral with the clutch disengaged, you've missed that sweet spot. The input shaft will have to speed up.

Practice deliberately shifting to neutral and quickly applying a tiny bit of pressure towards the next higher gear. I typically rest my hand on the console and use one or two fingers around or below the reverse lockout. When the primary shaft spools down on it's own (more or less) the gearshift will literally slip into gear. Skip a gear and without adding more pressure, the effect will become obvious.


Downshifts:
I will get flamed for this. I almost always double clutch my downshifts. What does that mean?

1. clutch disengaged
2. shift to neutral
3. clutch engaged
4. goose the throttle so the engine revs higher than it would in the gear of choice
5. clutch disengaged while the engine is at peak rev (throttle can be released immediately after)
6. slight pressure to chosen gear

Get this sequence down and you will have no trouble downshifting into first while the car is moving. Be careful, though. If you don't rev-match when you engage the clutch you'll get some serious whiplash.


Get good at this and your transmission will last FOREVER.

Thanks for that! Really helpful and informative

Just wondering, I try and rev match rather than double clutch downshift, what's the difference?

Also, I've been able to fluke a perfectly 100% unnoticeably smooth shift every now and then; I live for the day when I can do that consistently haha

ps. How do you "say thanks" to someone's post? haha