FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[mike the snake]

Don't the Mazda RX8 engines rev to 9K and above? I wonder what gearboxes they use.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

Don't the Mazda RX8 engines rev to 9K and above? I wonder what gearboxes they use.

Yeah they do but they do. t make much torque. I actually sourced a ton if information from that community as their transmission oil temps are sky high and after a cooler dropped down in the 200f range.

I'm looking at a number of options from full on racing 5 speeds to T56 units with dog engagement conversions which would fix any rpm related shifting issues. Gforce seems to be a company that makes a number of adapter plates for the import community. They are in PA so I may reach out to them as they have real race boxes in the $7-$9k range. Mixed reviews but it seems like the guys who are breaking them have over 1000 hp drag cars and they rate their units in the 1500-2000 hp range.

I haven't even attempted to see if it will dimensionally even work and these are racing units with external linkages other than the T56 conversion. I'm at the point with this car however that to further engine development I need to put something in that I know won't be problematic

[drewbot]

@Element Tuning

please do it, do it for science like these guys

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd7h7aAO18g&list=UUgf-6-_dM_g3pcQH4RPWu5g"]CSCS Round 4 2014 Mosport DDT Voltron Time Attack - YouTube[/ame]

[Brzzee]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Well unfortunately we were very unscientific about the transmission cooler as we had less than a week between races to swap the transmission and custom make a cooler. This means we just did it and crossed our fingers.

As far as ideal temps they very much follow engine oil temps so if you can keep it around 200-220F you're ideal but people can record 300+ on race cars. Oils just can't stay in grade at such high temperatures. I doubt street guys are seeing really high temps but I would love to see someone's data. I'm sure I'll monitor it next season but it's unlikely I'll be on this gearbox very long. I dont plan on hanging around sub 400 hp for very long.

Thanks for your feedback. Over the winter I plan to instrument my BRZ in preparation to data log engine and drive train operating temps, and engine oil pressure at the galley port as you have done. Thought to use an AEM AQ-1, selected AEM gauges, as well as switched sensors at multiple locations to monitor coolant and oil temps.

I'm working with several fabricators in North TX on a highly reconfigurable water-to-oil cooler and air-to-oil cooling system with controls that would allow for increased cooling (oil & Coolant) as enthusiasts move from OEM to modified NA to FI, while not necessarily being tied to one option based on the forced induction hardware selected.

I will also be looking at transmission and differential cooling solutions once I have data to guide the design process.

I will publish my findings in the forum.

Good luck with the remainder of your season.

[Andreas83]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

You can PM the answer if you like but are you just a street driver do you also track the car? From the failures I've seen this is one of two journals likely to fail first from a lack of oil pressure or starvation.

I would highly recommend people even in NA form go for a higher viscosity oil and a higher grade oil (not dealer bulk). While we are certainly in the business of building race reliable engines, it's a real shame to see a very lightly modified engine fail. This is assuming your tune wasn't detonating and pounding the bearings.

We can help as we are really the only ones who are addressing this particular issue but it will hurt a little more given the distance.

The good news is that the engine in our FRS is still racing along and has endured some extreme racing! I am looking forward to the external oil pump so we can juice up the Hp more.

I track the car sometimes.
Just got back from a road trip in Europe when this happened...
We drove in the alps, got some laps at nurburgring.
I am just glad this happened back at home...
The car has a header back exhaust, intake and crawford billet power blocks.
I cant blame the tune, it has less knock than the stock tune...
I also have a laminova oil cooler and a koyo radiator, it has been working pretty ok.
I was actually logging with ecutek when this happened, no knock worth mentioning.
But oil temps got up to about 130C, thats higher than it normally does.
So I might also look in to my oil cooler setup.
I have also considered going up in oil viscosity, maby 5w-30.

[stonenewt]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I would highly recommend people even in NA form go for a higher viscosity oil and a higher grade oil (not dealer bulk). While we are certainly in the business of building race reliable engines, it's a real shame to see a very lightly modified engine fail. This is assuming your tune wasn't detonating and pounding the bearings.

What oil, grade & brand, would you recommend for an N/A engine that sees motorway, fast road & medium track usage?

[Element Tuning]

drewbot, unfortunately their fancy gearbox broke 4th gear at Lime Rock at same race our FRS gearbox broke. That kind of spured me to really look into bullet proof units used in drag and NASCAR based.

I was really hoping that Kapps would have held up on their STi but while it's fast, it hadn't proven any stronger than the OEM gearbox.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by stonenewt

What oil, grade & brand, would you recommend for an N/A engine that sees motorway, fast road & medium track usage?

I raced my car NA with 10w30. I like a Red Line oils.

[mike the snake]

Don't the Nascar engines rev up to 10K? They use 4 speeds though I think.

What you want is the gearboxes used in the Austrailian V8 Supercars!

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

Don't the Nascar engines rev up to 10K? They use 4 speeds though I think.

What you want is the gearboxes used in the Austrailian V8 Supercars!

Yeah they do but those companies offer them with a 5th gear for Trans AM or road race cars

There are so many options and gears are pretty cheap so you can play with ratios etc.

[stonenewt]

Don't V8 Supercars use a 6 speed transaxle these days? Surly this will mean basically redesigning the rear suspension on a Twin?

How about the 7 speed DCT from the M5, 560ps/680Nm from the factory so should be up to the job... just need a few paddles and a bit of software yeah?

[Caspeed]

Originally Posted by Andreas83

I track the car sometimes.
Just got back from a road trip in Europe when this happened...
We drove in the alps, got some laps at nurburgring.
I am just glad this happened back at home...
The car has a header back exhaust, intake and crawford billet power blocks.
I cant blame the tune, it has less knock than the stock tune...
I also have a laminova oil cooler and a koyo radiator, it has been working pretty ok.
I was actually logging with ecutek when this happened, no knock worth mentioning.
But oil temps got up to about 130C, thats higher than it normally does.
So I might also look in to my oil cooler setup.
I have also considered going up in oil viscosity, maby 5w-30.

Sorry to hear about your motor. Because you already have the motor torn down you might want to consider Pauter Machine rods (California). I ran their rods in my racecar with good success. There are several NASCAR teams that use them as well. One advantage is that they will play with rod length or pin offset at your request. That allowed me to run longer rods with low deck height pistons. They are also very strong and light. And not too expensive. Spending money now will save you money in the long run.

I would also recommend that you look at your oil cooler installation. First of all throw your oil cooler away. You will never get it clean enough. Start at the oil cooler adaptor and port it to improve the flow. Ensure that you have the correct sized lines, use only long radius fittings. Change over to an air cooled oil cooler that has header tanks. Run the lines into the top of the cooler. Keep all of you line runs as short as possible. 130c is only 266f that is not too hot. Oil should be in the 121-145c/250-290f (synthetic oil) range for proper lubrication. IMHO

Also pick up Carroll Smith's "Engineer to Win" and "Prepare to Win"; http://www.carrollsmith.com/books/

Actually, I would recomend his entire series of books. They contain more knowledge about racecar tuning and preparation than you and I will ever learn doing trial and error. "Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook" was my bible through two formula car restorations.

Good luck!!!

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

What you want is the gearboxes used in the Austrailian V8 Supercars!

Originally Posted by stonenewt

Don't V8 Supercars use a 6 speed transaxle these days? Surly this will mean basically redesigning the rear suspension on a Twin?

The V8 supercars do currently run a transaxle but for years prior to that they ran hollinger dog and sequential boxes. From memory they would run up around 500 - 600hp but they redline at 7.5k.

The gearbox used in the V8 super cars:
http://www.holinger.com.au/h6s.php

And the gearbox that superceded it:
http://www.holinger.com.au/rd6.php

[mike the snake]

I wasn't aware the Austrailian V8 Supercars had transaxles. I thought they ran straight rear axles. I assumed only because I watch them and NONE of them run any rear camber, every last one has perfectly straight 0 degree alignments in the rear. I though I heard they used a 4 or 5 link setup so I assumed straight rear end.

Looks like they've recently changed to transaxles, I learnded something new today.