My vote for the worst ABS system goes to?

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by abraxis

Normal. It's a Subaru.

Honda's can be pretty bad too. Not as intrusive though.

The problem is more with VSC when doing anything lateral in my experience. Hope the DIY TC defeat posted on the forum will fix this eventually.

The Subaru STi ABS is exceptional! I think Toyota had a hand in this one.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Not exactly the same, but ever since I switched from 215/45/17 Sumitomo HTR ZIII --> shorter 235/40/17 Nitto NT05, I always get slight front tire lockup (quick chirps) before ABS engages at the track.

I'm wondering if it has to do with the reduction in tire size and ABS speed sensors.

I would be OK with that and it's what I'm used to. I think the key is to keep the front and rear tires square since they come square OEM. This would prevent the wheels speed differential.

In our early testing of the Hydra EMS we did note the OEM CAN wheel speed sensor data is all over the place!

[CSG Mike]

@Element Tuning: Phil, do you know what your brake pad and rotor temps look like after 1 hot lap? We've found that some compounds mix well, and others just don't due to their friction ramp vs force vs temp.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

The Subaru STi ABS is exceptional! I think Toyota had a hand in this one.

VSC yes. ABS no. Feels just like my other Subarus, non STIs. Slow, clunky and rough. I've had 5 Toyotas, none of them feel like the FRS or my Subarus. Toyota ABS is more refined feeling in my experiences. Historically Toyota usually has done well with brakes up and down the lineup compared to other Japanese car companies. The shitty stopping distance and crap brake pedal feel on the FRS is all Subaru again.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by SubiePig

I have complained about this for awhile and gotten a lot of "its not that bad" or "ICE mode was caused by inability to drive"? Even with track pads and 200TW street tires I have had a few sketchy moments on the brakes on track due to the ABS system. Its the same as you describe, looking for that limit and backing off.. but instead there is no "limit" the next lap you push harder and you don't get a pulse, just ineffective brakes.

I got some advice from the Nissan guys at the track who also have the "ice" mode issue and it's to get off the brake and back on it. I almost ran off at T1 and at the end of the back straight and lifting and getting back on is the only thing that will restore normal brake force. Unfortunately this means you need to leave some safety room in your braking zones.

I think there is significantly too much front bias and it's easy to "freak" out the ABS. Having fun out there in HPDE and I'm sure people aren't pushing it as hard as I am for a win or a track record. I'm just really curious if anyone else is getting the "ABS OFF" and brake lock up more than the "ICE" mode. Ice mode with a big brake kit isn't as scary but going 150 mph and loosing brake pressure with the OEM brakes had me pushing the brake pedal to the bumper without any improvement. LOL!

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

@Element Tuning: Phil, do you know what your brake pad and rotor temps look like after 1 hot lap? We've found that some compounds mix well, and others just don't due to their friction ramp vs force vs temp.

I don't even thought I suspected the friction/temp was an issue. I just thought going back to the OEM calipers and rotors would at least satisfy my front to rear bias theory.

I just want to state again I changed the steering angle and yaw sensors without checking calibrations but there are no "faults" showing. I really hope its something like that otherwise I'll be running a 355mm rear brake kit and OEM front. LOL!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I don't even thought I suspected the friction/temp was an issue. I just thought going back to the OEM calipers and rotors would at least satisfy my front to rear bias theory.

I just want to state again I changed the steering angle and yaw sensors without checking calibrations but there are no "faults" showing. I really hope its something like that otherwise I'll be running a 355mm rear brake kit and OEM front. LOL!

Which compounds were you using on the OEM calipers?

[Element Tuning]

Mike, DTC70 front and XP12 rear

[puma]

well i was just about to make a thread about this because we went and tested our new track car for the first time today and the braking is horrible, front lock up everytime. I have removed a lot of the wiring and for some reason, the ABS doesn't work anymore, no biggie, we were going to remove it in the future anyway. BUT, i thought the bias would still be there but the front locks up everytime and we are running cheap pads. My friend tried a completly stock FRS and it was braking way better he says (even if our car has better tires, brakes and 400 lbs lighter)

We are running on street tires, cheap one also, BF Goodrich Sport Comp2 but we have been running this tire for 2 seasons now with our RSX race car and the car brakes 100 time better than the FRS. We have the Ap racing kit in front and only running Hawk hp+ on all corners and we would light up the front just too easily.

So i was about to order some HPS to put in front but you seem to have the same problem as we have, bias way off. I guess removing the system is going to be inevitable. Also, i tried the car briefly (i am not the driver) and felt like there was absolutly no feeling in the pedal, seems like the brake booster is way too strong, we are going to rip that out also for sure.

edit: can't say how it compares with the ABS running because we never tried that, i would need to search why it is not working but i doubt this is the way we want it to work.

[Element Tuning]

Puma, no it isn't raceable with the ABS disabled. It's going to need the module removed and plumbed directly. I think the booster is OK when the pads get up to temperature the pedal will firm up.

As crazy as it sounds I may have someone put together a kit with smaller front brake pistons to force more rear bias but then again it might just be easy enough to plumb in some front driver adjustable valves so I can pull some pressure out that way.

[SubiePig]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I got some advice from the Nissan guys at the track who also have the "ice" mode issue and it's to get off the brake and back on it. I almost ran off at T1 and at the end of the back straight and lifting and getting back on is the only thing that will restore normal brake force. Unfortunately this means you need to leave some safety room in your braking zones.

I think there is significantly too much front bias and it's easy to "freak" out the ABS. Having fun out there in HPDE and I'm sure people aren't pushing it as hard as I am for a win or a track record. I'm just really curious if anyone else is getting the "ABS OFF" and brake lock up more than the "ICE" mode. Ice mode with a big brake kit isn't as scary but going 150 mph and loosing brake pressure with the OEM brakes had me pushing the brake pedal to the bumper without any improvement. LOL!

It hit me at 130 on the front straight of Texas World into turn one! Quite the pucker moment!

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Puma, no it isn't raceable with the ABS disabled. It's going to need the module removed and plumbed directly. I think the booster is OK when the pads get up to temperature the pedal will firm up.

As crazy as it sounds I may have someone put together a kit with smaller front brake pistons to force more rear bias but then again it might just be easy enough to plumb in some front driver adjustable valves so I can pull some pressure out that way.

Could this be a result of the down force you're running putting more force on the rear tires?

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Calum

Could this be a result of the down force you're running putting more force on the rear tires?

It's definitely "normal" to need more rear brake force when increasing rear downforce and also increased suspension stiffness for optimal braking. Think of it like if you put a 355mm front brake kit on, you better also put close to a 355mm rear brake kit on if you have a "Pro" level car otherwise you're giving up to much in the rear.

Now my car isn't hugely different than it was a couple seasons ago in terms of downforce.

Having more rear downforce etc. shouldn't cause the ABS to stop working. As Jeremy Clarkson would say, "it's stupid, stupid, stupid" LOL!

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by SubiePig

I have complained about this for awhile and gotten a lot of "its not that bad" or "ICE mode was caused by inability to drive"? Even with track pads and 200TW street tires I have had a few sketchy moments on the brakes on track due to the ABS system. Its the same as you describe, looking for that limit and backing off.. but instead there is no "limit" the next lap you push harder and you don't get a pulse, just ineffective brakes.

I am running the sprint brakes, tried multiple compounds and hate the brakes as well. Horrible to modulate and at the extreme limit its either completely unstable feeling or ice mode. As mentioned you always have to leave some safety gap on the table.

I don't have not had this issue with my other sports cars. You could threshold brake easy and know that ABS point.