My vote for the worst ABS system goes to?

[Element Tuning]

This car! I will start by saying I don't know if something is wrong with my ABS system in particular or this is a problem others have also.

I was running a Brembo STi front brake setup with OEM rears and for awhile I seemed to get away with it while running a Hawk DTC 60 up front and XP12s in the back (at the time it was my only choice). Sometimes I would get ICE mode but can't say it was ever a really big deal.

Now at Lime Rock I had DTC70s and frankly the car setup was somewhat different with more spring rate, more tire, and more aero but I was getting the front wheels to lock up. Now normally I would try to brake hard enough to get some ABS and then back off but I never got ABS, just front lock up. So after pulling about 4 Rosbergs into T1 runoff I just had to brake very early and very softly.

So my gut was telling me I had way to much front bias due to the increase brake torque from the larger rotor and pad compound. This isn't an uncommon issue for me with race cars but instead of getting a big rear brake kit I just decided to go back to the OEM front brakes with race pads thinking it would reduce my front brake torque and balance things out. $2k in ruined tires later this was not the fix either and the same issue is happening with the ABS just turning off. To make matters worse I was also getting "ICE" mode also and with the OEM brakes it's really hard to stop at the speeds we are going!

Turning the ABS off results in ridiculous front bias and it's almost unraceable. It's as if the OEM system is setup with massive front bias and then shuffles brake fluid pressure rearward when need but it's much too slow acting. Whichever engineer thought it would be best to just shut the ABS off is a dumb ass!

What's the deal, is it just me as usual?

In any event still broke the track record at VIR for TT2 braking like a rookie

In car video:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hS2dsVVglQ"]Element Tuning Time Attack FRS VIR Lap Record - YouTube[/ame]

[7thgear]

have you driven OTHER cars?


lol


my old impreza had ABS feel like the Hulk was ripping my wheels away from the chassis and throwing them into random directions

[ja1217]

I posted in your Engine Oil thread, but I'll post again here.

A lot of us track guys have had great success with the AP Racing Sprint/Endurance kits from Essex. While I'm not running nearly as much power, tire, or downforce as you, I didn't have any issues with my Sprint Kit this weekend at VIR with Hawk DTC-60's all around. I know it would be an expensive waste of time if you bought them and it didn't help, but I do know they were specifically designed to work with the stock rear brakes and not mess up the braking balance.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

have you driven OTHER cars?


lol


my old impreza had ABS feel like the Hulk was ripping my wheels away from the chassis and throwing them into random directions

Ha ha....well the 02 WRX was pretty bad but at least it didn't shut off

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by ja1217

I posted in your Engine Oil thread, but I'll post again here.

A lot of us track guys have had great success with the AP Racing Sprint/Endurance kits from Essex. While I'm not running nearly as much power, tire, or downforce as you, I didn't have any issues with my Sprint Kit this weekend at VIR with Hawk DTC-60's all around. I know it would be an expensive waste of time if you bought them and it didn't help, but I do know they were specifically designed to work with the stock rear brakes and not mess up the braking balance.

Right so if you don't change the rotor diameter and you don't change the piston diameter you shouldn't change the braking balance. If you change the rotor diameter you do change front brake torque no matter what you're told if you keep the piston diameter the same.

This is why I went back to my stock brakes to eliminate the issue of me altering the front brake torque with a larger diameter rotor. I'm back to OEM and I'm still having this issue.

[BRZZZZZZZZZZ]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Ha ha....well the 02 WRX was pretty bad but at least it didn't shut off

I am pretty sure ABS on my WRX is worse or borked completely.

That said I fucking hate ABS in anything other than a panic maneuver when I really need it.

[Element Tuning]

Is anyone else feeling "ABS" pulse before locking up or maybe going into "ice" mode? That's my main concerns is why am I not getting some ABS pulse first before total shut down?

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by BRZZZZZZZZZZ

I am pretty sure ABS on my WRX is worse or borked completely.

That said I fucking hate ABS in anything other than a panic maneuver when I really need it.

A good ABS system is amazing and a bad one is just that. I normally tend to brake until I get an ABS pulse and then I pull back (similar to threshold braking).

On this car you can't just turn off ABS with good results, you'll have to gut it because something is causing too little rear brake force without ABS on. I guess I could always reduce front force bias driver adjustable Tilton valves.

Maybe the DTC70s are too much and the XP12s suck, I don't know. I feel like it was Ok with the Brembo DTC60 and OEM rear with XP12. I'm stiffer now however so I'm not getting as much weight transfer over the front end as I used to under braking.

I might need to get my steering angle and roll center sensors tested as I did have to replace both after the fire and the airbag deploying.

[SubiePig]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Is anyone else feeling "ABS" pulse before locking up or maybe going into "ice" mode? That's my main concerns is why am I not getting some ABS pulse first before total shut down?

I have complained about this for awhile and gotten a lot of "its not that bad" or "ICE mode was caused by inability to drive"? Even with track pads and 200TW street tires I have had a few sketchy moments on the brakes on track due to the ABS system. Its the same as you describe, looking for that limit and backing off.. but instead there is no "limit" the next lap you push harder and you don't get a pulse, just ineffective brakes.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Now normally I would try to brake hard enough to get some ABS and then back off but I never got ABS, just front lock up.

Not exactly the same, but ever since I switched from 215/45/17 Sumitomo HTR ZIII --> shorter 235/40/17 Nitto NT05, I always get slight front tire lockup (quick chirps) before ABS engages at the track.

I'm wondering if it has to do with the reduction in tire size and ABS speed sensors.

[ja1217]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Right so if you don't change the rotor diameter and you don't change the piston diameter you shouldn't change the braking balance. If you change the rotor diameter you do change front brake torque no matter what you're told if you keep the piston diameter the same.

This is why I went back to my stock brakes to eliminate the issue of me altering the front brake torque with a larger diameter rotor. I'm back to OEM and I'm still having this issue.

The Sprint kit that I have only increased the diameter by 4mm (299 vs 295 stock). It really increased the width of the rotor (32mm vs 24mm), allowing for more cooling and heat capacity. The endurance kit is bigger at 325mm diameter and I don't have any experience to comment on it.

As for why you are having issues on stock calipers, I really don't know. I've only run into ice mode a few times, but only on autocross for me, where I'm coming into the stop box sideways and slamming on the brakes while still sliding around. Can definitely be scary, but like I said, I have yet to have any issues with it on track in theorey because I'm not usually sliding into a corner and then braking.

[fatalelement]

I drove a 2003 Camry without any stability or traction aids in a Michigan winter. Abs on that car consisted of "Oh hey it looks like the wheels locked.......... Let me know how that goes buddy!" and sometimes it would pulse just to spite me as I slowly slid forwards (often with a nice, slow turn in place) through a stop sign at <5 mph while onlookers smirked and I attempted to regain traction.
I called it always-lock braking system.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

This car!

Normal. It's a Subaru.

Honda's can be pretty bad too. Not as intrusive though.

The problem is more with VSC when doing anything lateral in my experience. Hope the DIY TC defeat posted on the forum will fix this eventually.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by ja1217

The Sprint kit that I have only increased the diameter by 4mm (299 vs 295 stock). It really increased the width of the rotor (32mm vs 24mm), allowing for more cooling and heat capacity. The endurance kit is bigger at 325mm diameter and I don't have any experience to comment on it.

As for why you are having issues on stock calipers, I really don't know. I've only run into ice mode a few times, but only on autocross for me, where I'm coming into the stop box sideways and slamming on the brakes while still sliding around. Can definitely be scary, but like I said, I have yet to have any issues with it on track in theorey because I'm not usually sliding into a corner and then braking.

You're probably not going 150 mph into your braking zone either. LOL!