Advanced driving.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by stugray

I did not say that engine braking is in any way more dangerous than brakes alone.
You did not use one single fact in the statement above, only sarcasm.

I would just like for you to explain how "Braking + engine braking is faster than braking alone."



Just exactly the same as how the car squats down when applying the brakes.
Engine braking applies a torque to the rear wheels.
Brake braking applies a torque to the rear wheels.

Please explain how the road knows the difference between engine braking and brake braking.

Or are you trying to say that engine braking PLUS brake braking can apply more braking force than brakes alone? (that hurts my brain to proofread :-)

Brakes are front biased, using engine braking increases rear braking performance on RWD cars and helps stop the car faster. This is the reason that you only lock up the FRONT tires when you brake hard.

So yes... engine braking in RWD will help you slow down faster.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

Doubt that

Luis, tell me you were posting this 'tongue firmly planted in cheek'.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Propaganda

One torque plus another torque is greater than one torque alone, leaving out any negative or negating torques (not applicable in this case). .
.

That statement is true.
However, Assume the following (100% made up #s of course):
if the brakes can apply say 1000 ft lbs of torque(at the wheel)
the engine braking can apply say 200 ft lbs of torque (at the wheel)
it takes 800 ft lbs of torque to lock the wheels

Why would the car stop faster because using braking PLUS engine braking it can apply 1200 ft lbs torque to stop the wheel from turning?

You can lock the wheels with brakes alone, how can applying more braking help that any?

Same thing applies to too much HP:
If you can spin the wheels in any gear with 400hp, how can 100 more hp make you any faster?

And in racing the proper application of engine braking can give you extra skills in setting up the car on turn in AND relieve the brakes of a little extra abuse (less heat).

[Andrew025]

Originally Posted by paulca

Also to those who think I am refering to granny style slow driving should watch a police car cut through London traffic or on hot pursuit down a country road and watch closely how and when they change gear.

I personally love leaving boy racers behind in traffic. They can blip and rev match and brake harshly all they want, but I usually just glide past them because I am instead watching the road, identifying not only hazards, but opportunities and taking advantage. They then have to speed to catch up.

It's more about "Roadcraft" which is completely different to "track craft".

You should focus even more brain cells on the road instead of trying to impress these boy racers you're so fond of.


This really just sounds like "old guy get off my lawn with your loud music" ranting more than anything.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by paulca

Also to those who think I am refering to granny style slow driving should watch a police car cut through London traffic or on hot pursuit down a country road and watch closely how and when they change gear.

I personally love leaving boy racers behind in traffic. They can blip and rev match and brake harshly all they want, but I usually just glide past them because I am instead watching the road, identifying not only hazards, but opportunities and taking advantage. They then have to speed to catch up.

It's more about "Roadcraft" which is completely different to "track craft".

You can blip and rev match and not use brakes harshly, this shows how little you know about driving a manual. I pride myself in being as smooth as possible and I blip and rev match to have near zero G force changes while braking, changing lanes, and I have gotten driving down to the point I can speed through traffic and barely use the brake pedal as I use the engine to slow the car down to traffic speed simply by letting go of the gas pedal and rev matching to a lower gear.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

Brakes are front biased, using engine braking increases rear braking performance on RWD cars and helps stop the car faster. This is the reason that you only lock up the FRONT tires when you brake hard.

Brakes are front biased because as you brake you offload weight from the rear wheels and you now have less braking ability in the rear.
Under hard braking, you need less and less rear braking force, so WHY would having even MORE braking to the rear allow you better braking - it DOESNT.

Agian - the braking system has PLENTLY of force to apply to the rears to lock them up without engine braking. I CHOOSES not to because physics states it is of no use.

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

So yes... engine braking in RWD will help you slow down faster.

No it does not


(I have a computer that can render WOW at 1000 fps too - what was that monitor refresh rate again??? )

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Andrew025

You should focus even more brain cells on the road instead of trying to impress these boy racers you're so fond of.

I'm not trying to impress them. I just find it amusing that with all their aggressive punchy driving they don't actually get anywhere faster.

Of course it's more fun driving aggressively and the more you have to do the more involved you feel. My point still stands that newbies should not be given this advice straight up. It also stands that driven sensibly there is no need to rev match or anything of the sort. Save that for when you are hooning it and raking the knackers out of the car. Just do that somewhere quiet and safe.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Luis, tell me you were posting this 'tongue firmly planted in cheek'.

That vid is old as fuck, I just felt like sharing it... Mad skillz I has!

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

That vid is old as fuck, I just felt like sharing it... Mad skillz I has!

That's what I figured.

Rode with a guy the other day that went down through every gear approaching the stoplight. I just about got out of his car at the stop light.

Afterwords we asked what I thought about the car and I said: "You may have bitten off more than you can chew."

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by stugray

Brakes are front biased because as you brake you offload weight from the rear wheels and you now have less braking ability in the rear.
Under hard braking, you need less and less rear braking force, so WHY would having even MORE braking to the rear allow you better braking - it DOESNT.

Agian - the braking system has PLENTLY of force to apply to the rears to lock them up without engine braking. I CHOOSES not to because physics states it is of no use.



No it does not

Even with the weight transfer to the front, the rear tires have enough contact patch and grip that the stock brake pads can't completely use, this is where engine braking helps.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

You can blip and rev match and not use brakes harshly, this shows how little you know about driving a manual. I pride myself in being as smooth as possible and I blip and rev match to have near zero G force changes while braking, changing lanes, and I have gotten driving down to the point I can speed through traffic and barely use the brake pedal as I use the engine to slow the car down to traffic speed simply by letting go of the gas pedal and rev matching to a lower gear.

Whoopy for you. "You can", so what. So can I. My point is, it's pointless at normal road pace. You are creating a load of work for yourself for little or no gain.

Try it sometime. See how smooth you can be without pedal dances, without rev matching etc. If you can't shift smoothly then you need to learn how to. Then see if you feel that rev matching is required.

I occasionally do a full down the box rev match braking for fun. Then I wonder if I actually gained anything from it other than some mild amusement and the answer is usually... no. I didn't.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

That's what I figured.

Rode with a guy the other day that went down through every gear approaching the stoplight. I just about got out of his car at the stop light.

Afterwords we asked what I thought about the car and I said: "You may have bitten off more than you can chew."

lol... no one notices when I downshift, I do it to keep the car as smooth as possible, something that can't be done unless you throw the car in neutral and only rely on the brakes to stop. even with downshifting 1 gear ant near idle, I can feel a slight change in g force that bother me.

[Andrew025]

Originally Posted by paulca

I'm not trying to impress them. I just find it amusing that with all their aggressive punchy driving they don't actually get anywhere faster.

Of course it's more fun driving aggressively and the more you have to do the more involved you feel. My point still stands that newbies should not be given this advice straight up. It also stands that driven sensibly there is no need to rev match or anything of the sort. Save that for when you are hooning it and raking the knackers out of the car. Just do that somewhere quiet and safe.

"Normal" people drive like that all the time (aggressive, mashing the accelerator and brakes). It's not exclusive to the boy racers.

I employ most of the techniques you're advising against and you probably wouldn't be able to pick me out of normal traffic since it's easily possible to drive normal and not like an asshat with these techniques.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by paulca

Whoopy for you. "You can", so what. So can I. My point is, it's pointless at normal road pace. You are creating a load of work for yourself for little or no gain.

Try it sometime. See how smooth you can be without pedal dances, without rev matching etc. If you can't shift smoothly then you need to learn how to. Then see if you feel that rev matching is required.

I occasionally do a full down the box rev match braking for fun. Then I wonder if I actually gained anything from it other than some mild amusement and the answer is usually... no. I didn't.

Again, I don't think or work for it, my body does it automatically while I'm off in la la land thinking of other stuff or singing along to the radio, or sometimes I'm analising which lane is going faster or what car is going faster to anticipate a lane change