SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

gotta look at the west times

EDIT: it looks like if the twins were mixed in with the ES crew the times woulda been very closely matched. (considering Sean's performance and his complaints with the tires)

these woulda been the top 11 people if twins were in ES


61.116 eric mr2
61.55 ricardo twin
61.563 sean twin
61.7 robert miata
61.815 Michael miata
62.073 john twin
62.195 adam mr2
62.303 steven twin
62.6 randy twin
62.774 sean miata
62.87 Daniel miata

This is good data to track!!
Hopefully the East times will prove to be just as similar.

I am thinking ES or DS. The times in DS dont really match the twins, but DS has been an odd-ball class and I'm not sure of the level of talent or vehicle prep for the class leading drivers/cars there.

If it looks like ES is a good fit, just prepare for a battle. Many of the Miata guys don't want us there and will fight tooth and nail. Their argument is that ES is an "everyman's class", where you can pick up a cheap car, do a budget build, and be competitive to win. Also, it is the only place for owners with an NB miata to play.

We need to build a sound argument and write a ton of letters!!

For classing I think timing of those letters is also a key issue.
Not sure about when the cut off for the class configurations is for the SAC/SEB, but I think we need to get those letters in soon.

FYI, to submit a letter all you need to do is go to www.sebscca.com

Don't rely on the SCCA to make the changes themselves! This is where direct member input counts the mosts!!!

[qoncept]

What's the precedent for plugging a car in to a class where it would knock half of the top 10 out? Against a stalwart like the NB Miata I think it's a pretty tough sell. And DS doesn't seem like a very good fit at all.

[vroom4]

You dont have good data yet, need better drives in CS first.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by vroom4

You dont have good data yet, need better drives in CS first.

[Sheldon Cooper] if there were better drivers in CS, don't you think they'd be there? [/Sheldon Cooper]

[xwd]

Originally Posted by qoncept

What's the precedent for plugging a car in to a class where it would knock half of the top 10 out? Against a stalwart like the NB Miata I think it's a pretty tough sell. And DS doesn't seem like a very good fit at all.

Yeah it's not going to happen. ES is the place for old cheap sportscars and while I think the NB crew might be vocal in having the MR-S moved maybe? they would have a fit over the twins being moved into ES. Like I said, the twins aren't going anywhere they are going to continue to be in CS.

And I think on the East course the twins may put more time on the ES cars due to horsepower even with worse gearing.

[SeanRTR]

I'm not quite sure ES is the correct route.
Do we really think our car is more comparable to the 90's NA/NB chassis than the current 2007+ Miata?
I think the 370Z is the only car that may get moved, up to BS. The advantage in a Pro Solo alone is enough evidence, and while the course on the East was more challengine and enjoyable than I thought it was when I first saw/walked it, courses like that are a pretty severe favorite to the 370z.

Data from myself against Mark Andy's RX-8 indicates it's very, very close and always course dependent.
I've also run a few events against Peterson who is currently winning E-stock, and he usually straight times me by the same margin, I'm happy to see he's winning after day one and I'm not all that slow....

I posted my runs from Day 2:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=41955&page=3

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by dwx

Yeah it's not going to happen. ES is the place for old cheap sportscars and while I think the NB crew might be vocal in having the MR-S moved maybe? they would have a fit over the twins being moved into ES. Like I said, the twins aren't going anywhere they are going to continue to be in CS.

And I think on the East course the twins may put more time on the ES cars due to horsepower even with worse gearing.

+1. Yeah, I don't think the twins are going anywhere in any of the categories it's classed in. Some arguments can certainly be made, but I don't think there's a sufficient body of evidence to support a move of the Twins.

Street: There *might* be something behind getting a 370 moved up, but not the Twins moved out. Also, careful comparing times between classes at nationals, particularly when the run days are different. if it doesn't rain, there's a pretty strong correlation between "what day you ran" and "what segment of the pax sheet" you end up in. Not 1:1 correlation, but the faster times are set on the always-rubbering-in courses on the last run days, barring freak weather or cars oiling the course, etc.

Street Touring: Twins had a very strong showing. No arguing that, but STS would be a DOA proposal. Nevermind the skinny tires and high-ish weight, we have a differential that is not allowed in STS. The STC/STS merge will be ugly enough without trying to explain why we get a diff to help us put down roughly double the horsepower of the Civics/CRX/Miatae. If there's a chance of a class move, I think they'd try to stuff us in STR, instead.

All IMO, $0.02, YMMV, and such.

[mla163]

Regardless of where they end up, I don't think the twins and the Z/RX8 should be in the same class. I don't want to take away a miata class, but there has to be room somewhere.

Another point of consideration - look at the attendance between CS and ES. 29 in ES, 55 in CS. 4 different models in CS, basically one model in ES.

The best way to present this as a letter would be to compare times from CS/ES over a bunch of national (even local) events and show what the results would look like. I don't think SEB should consider a change based on just two courses at nationals.

If someone wants to put together the data, I'll write a letter. I just don't have time to sift through a years worth of results and make a spreadsheet.

Maybe it is a good match. Maybe the NB and twins can compete well in the same class. I don't know I haven't looked at enough results.

[qoncept]

I took a look at a couple of locals I generally try to gauge myself if I had gone. On a 60 second course I'm generally a little under a second behind both Aaron Breitbach (finished #39 in STX) and Mike Holzinger (currently 14th in STS, with an almost identical time on the east course that I'm guessing favors an old Miata much less than our locals).

I'd guess I'd have a total time of about 131, so my goal of top half in CS probably wouldn't happen.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by vroom4

You dont have good data yet, need better drives in CS first.

Sad reality is that if the car is not classed to be competitive, it will not attract top talent. Currently, as it stands now it can be easily said that the twins are underdogs in CS. Underdogs rarely attract established and talented drivers.

Swim to the top or sink to the bottom type situation it seems.

Its sad, as the twins do draw new members to the sport. From what I have seen first had, much more than the Zs, RX-8, or the NC.

A newer car for most young people is an investment (unlike a $1k-3k NA Miata). Having new members come into the sport with their popular car and find their investment is the "wrong car" will definitely be a barrier to keeping new blood in the sport or the class.

It would be tough to tell a young new member that STX is the only place to be competitive....and that he will need an additional $6-7k minimum in parts just to be relevant.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

It would be tough to tell a young new member that STX is the only place to be competitive....and that he will need an additional $6-7k minimum in parts just to be relevant.

I don't think it's such a problem. The vast majority of drivers aren't at all well prepped for whatever class they're in and probably the same amount aren't good enough drivers to even consider being competitive. (I'm only in 1 of those groups now, my car is pretty fast!) Anyone can show up to a local event and have a blast. In most of of the 100 or so events (across 6 regions) I've done there are a 0-2 other drivers in the class anyway.

And STX was CREATED for the guys that buy a car, do a few things to it and then show up at an autox. ST* classes allow the bolt-on stuff that the typical car guy is going to buy. That's where most of the people I know end up being classed. Street tires in stock class are the only thing that makes that less relevant.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by qoncept

What's the precedent for plugging a car in to a class where it would knock half of the top 10 out? Against a stalwart like the NB Miata I think it's a pretty tough sell. And DS doesn't seem like a very good fit at all.

The reasoning I have heard for the move to ES (as proposed in the past, but was shot down) was that the ES is full of aging cars and the class/cars are not really attracting new members...so basically "who cares about the NB, cause its not doing anything for us (SCCA) in bringing in new blood."

[vroom4]

The people who make these decisions are racers just like the rest of us....they arent "the SCCA" persay.

[Rampage]

The two fastest twins would have been 2nd and 3rd on the same course that ES ran today. It will be interesting to see how the MR-S and Miata stack up on the other course compared to the twins.