Lowering Springs Making Handling Worse?

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by RavioliG

Great, because like I said, I've taken the car countless times to twisty roads in the area and have attacked them quite aggressively. The car handled similar to as it did stock.. (But unknown to me till your comment, I guess I have been loading my bumpstops all the way now... yikes).

Any stock one would be partially loading the bumpstops as well, that itself isn't a bad thing. What I was talking about was fully compressing the bump stop from cornering forces alone and having zero travel left for any bumps.

Originally Posted by RavioliG

I'll be getting new tires before the trackday as mine are kaput right now (Stock tires up front, and RE760's in the rear), and I have had my eye on Pilot SuperSports.
I've been to the track twice with my old RX8, which handled similarly to this car, and I've been autocrossing with this car once after having installed the springs, shorter bumpstops, camber arms, and camber bolts. (I'm running -1.5 degrees all around).
I'm in no way a novice when it comes to driving my car, and wasn't really concerned about my spring selection having a negative impact on my cars handling until........well this thread basically.

With PSS on a less than perfectly smooth track I would imagine you'll notice a couple times that you could use more travel (and/or spring rate), but it won't be disastrous, just possibly less than ideal.

[chicagokid]

I have the pro kit and really like it (and spacers, 25 mm rear and 20 mm fronts). Pro Kit is perfect for DD and will settle to 1" drop. It's not bouncy or harsh. IMO... just perfect height and drive. It's similar to the TRD springs. BUT always get an alignment soon after lowering it.

[Pandle]

I've had the pro kit for over a year now and to be honest I don't really like them. I'm slowly getting closer and closer to buying something different. Not sure what yet but that's why I'm here . I have a 70 mile round trip to work and the streets here are terrible and the same goes for the freeway. Lane changes while my cars bouncing all over the place doesn't exactly inspire confidence either. Every morning I watch my headlights constantly bounce up and down and that's the same thing I see on cheap pos hondas. I feel like I'm one of those guys now. But that's just me.

[B-R-Z]

I have a similar problem with my prokit Pandle, I do like a slight increase in firmness, but I can't even keep a cup of coffee in the cup holder and make it down the street without it spilling all over the place. And this is in a disposable cup with the small sip hole in it. This is my battle every morning when I start my commute to work. I'm itching for a nice ($1000 or less lol) set of coilovers.

[orangeblue]

Originally Posted by wparsons

The car only has about 2.5" of bump travel stock, so taking up 1.5" of that with lowering means running MUCH higher spring rates, or bottoming out too much for good handling (unless where you're driving is glass smooth with no bumps).

For street driving and the odd auto x in a smooth parking lot you won't notice it, but on a less than brand new track you'll DEFINITELY notice it.

I have to disagree. I notice the lack of travel and damping much more on the street than on the track. Street driving is more likely to give you the sharp impacts that result in a harsh ride than you'll get on even a bumpy track. I've tracked at Sebring, which is a converted WWII bomber field, a number of times and the car gets more upset by potholes than any of the weird seams at the track. At Homestead-Miami, which is immaculately surfaced, Sportlines work great.

[wparsons]

Again, it comes down to what tires you have, how much track experience, etc. Ask good drivers with sticky tires, and you'll get the same answer every time.

How many of those weird seams are mid corner, especially in high G corners? All along I've been talking about the lack of travel and spring rate when looking at how loaded the suspension gets mid corner, not when traveling straight hitting bumps.

[Sleepless]

All, lowering springs are a compromise relative to the stock dampers. By definition they will not improve the overall handling. The lower they are , the greater the compromise.

I've used lowering springs on a couple of previous cars and in both cases it was clear that the car was under damped; on the street and on the track.

However, each person has their own tolerance for these things, so, I doubt there is a definitive answer.

I obviously would not recommend just lowering springs. Get matching dampers from a reputable source.


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[Ubersuber]

Anybody actually tested the stock springs with better tires and better dampers and compared the lap times to lowered coilovers?

Better yet, anybody actually tested stock springs with uprated roll bars, better dampers and better tires?

I'm betting the benefit of lowered, stiffer springs is pretty marginal.

On the road I know which would be quicker.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

Anybody actually tested the stock springs with better tires and better dampers and compared the lap times to lowered coilovers?

Better yet, anybody actually tested stock springs with uprated roll bars, better dampers and better tires?

I'm betting the benefit of lowered, stiffer springs is pretty marginal.

On the road I know which would be quicker.

I haven't seen any hard data on our cars, it would be a good test, but it would be a lot of work, not sure if anybody is willing to put in the time.

You know - I'm pretty sure you're right, lower/stiffer springs (all of them) probably compromise actual handling of the car a bit. I doubt it's by a huge amount - possibly meaningful for a professional (or very advanced amateur) driver.

The thing is, the lower/stiffer springs make my car *feel* sportier, even though deep down I know they're really not. But in my years of driving cars, I've found that I like spending my money/effort on fun-to-drive factor (mostly on public roads), rather than what gets me the best numbers around a track. I can't fault the track guys for going for the last tenth at the track, but I think mods that make the car *FEEL more fun don't get enough credit

[jonbonazza]

FWIW, I have the Swift Spec-R springs on stock struts until I save up for SRCs and track the car about once a month. I had a couple more experienced people drive the car (Including @CSG_Mike) and both of them agreed that with a set of LCAs and some camber plates to maximize camber in the front and rear (Running as much as I can without LCAs and the Whiteline camber bolts atm), the car would handle very well for a car w/o coilovers. Of course, no springs will stack up to a good coilover (for that matter no budget coilover will stack up to a good coilover either), but for some one of novice to intermediate level, they will perform fine. They also have very competitive price tag. I picked mine up for $325.

EDIT: Also, they only lower the car about 1.0".

[ZionsWrath]

What if you add in Bilsteins with a spring such as RCE? Or at that point should you go to a a height adjustable coilover?

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

What if you add in Bilsteins with a spring such as RCE? Or at that point should you go to a a height adjustable coilover?

I asked RCE that question. The Tarmac springs plus Bilstein B8s come to about 1250 on FT-86SF. RCE Tarmac Zero coilovers are 1700 with the same spring rate. So what's the benefit of the extra 450?

The coils have height adjustability and the dampers are perfectly matched to the springs, whereas the spring/strut combo is fixed height and the off-the-shelf damper rates, while very good, aren't an exact match. Also, the coilovers have stainless steel construction, and I don't think the struts do. Neither come with top hats, so that would be an extra expense.

I think for myself, my suspension adventure will be yellows/OEM struts > add top hats > change to Tarmac Zeros, as I grow as a driver.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

Anybody actually tested the stock springs with better tires and better dampers and compared the lap times to lowered coilovers?

Better yet, anybody actually tested stock springs with uprated roll bars, better dampers and better tires?

I'm betting the benefit of lowered, stiffer springs is pretty marginal.

On the road I know which would be quicker.

Ask the guys at CSG, they have TONS of testing data. Even without their data, I can tell you that with really grippy tires you'll want more spring rate than the stock springs have, by quite a lot. Lowering around an inch alone won't drastically change the handling, but no one sells stock height springs in a higher rate.

As for stiffer sway bars vs stiffer springs, sway bars should only be used for fine tuning, not drastic changes in roll stiffness. By increasing roll stiffness with just sway bars you're losing independent wheel motion, which is bad. You can actually decrease overall grip by going with too stiff of swaybars vs spring rates as well since sway bars unload the inside tires.

I'm not saying sway bars are bad, but to use them to significantly increase the roll stiffness is a bad plan.

[xxBrun0xx]

I'm learning all sorts of stuff on properly setting up suspension. Lots of good info here, thanks guys!