Scion FR-S versus Scion xB

[86'd]

Originally Posted by nibor33

Fun to drive is relative. The WRX may have power and versatility, but an AWD car with an engine in front of the front wheels is not a car that directly competes with the 86. Handling is not defined by grip alone. Wait until you drive the 86 to understand what responsiveness and balance are, compared to a WRX.

If you look at my posts I'm practically a fanboy for the FRS/BRZ; it will most likely be my next car. But it's not out of my comprehension that someone will cross shop a WRX with this.

Just because one person cross shops two cars does not make those cars competitors (i.e. in the same segment). One may need to make a personal decision between practicality and sportiness, but the argument for WRX vs. BRZ is as invalid as a minivan vs. an Elise. Where is the line drawn? xB can't be fun, WRX fun enough to compete with BRZ?

Of course it doesn't make them in the same exact segment, but currently the FRS/BRZ is it's own segment. We compare the closest cars in price, performance and things like power to weight and "bang for the buck." The xB and minivans aren't sporty or fun, or powerful.

The valid discussions are 86 vs. other sports cars, sporty coupes, etc., such as GC, Mustang, Miata, and so-on. Many people will have to decide between a sports car and a car in another segment (sedan, hatch, etc). Instead of arguing merits of the cars, it's as simple as which one do you want/need? If I want a FR coupe, I won't consider a sedan or hatch. If I need 4 doors or storage space, I won't consider a sports car.

Unfortunately you don't dictate what's valid and invalid. People will cross shop performance cars. My criteria of allowable comparisons isn't limited to cars in the same segment, but IMO it is limited to cars with similar performance characteristics and price. Sedans, Coupes, New/Used are all fair game; because again the FRS/BRZ is in it's own segment.

An xB, again isn't in the same price range, it's slow and isn't and will never be mentioned in the segment of "sporty cars in the mid $20,000s."

In my mind I see something like this when I'm comparing cars:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...1-class-page-3

[nibor33]

^ Good rebuttal.

Originally Posted by 86'd

Of course it doesn't make them in the same exact segment, but currently the FRS/BRZ is it's own segment. We compare the closest cars in price, performance and things like power to weight and "bang for the buck." The xB and minivans aren't sporty or fun, or powerful.

I wouldn't say that the 86 is in its own segment. You really do have the Miata, GC, 370Z, just as Asian imports go. The minivan example is, of course, the most extreme I can come up with, and was somewhat of a joke. But, if you include the WRX, all of the following should be fair game for comparison: Audi A4/S4, BMWs galore, Lexus IS, my goodness the list goes on and on.

I just get the feeling that WRX is included because it is a Subaru, which is arbitrary (except to Subaru fans). The Scion xB is compared by the OP because it is a Scion. Again, some may cross shop *anything* vs. the 86, but, in reality, you're only going to see magazine comparos in the same segment. Most buyers will decide major criteria and cross shop cars in the same segment. For instance, a small luxury sports sedan --> A4, 3 series, IS.

Originally Posted by 86'd

Unfortunately you don't dictate what's valid and invalid.

YES. Quite unfortunate.

Originally Posted by 86'd

People will cross shop performance cars. My criteria of allowable comparisons isn't limited to cars in the same segment, but IMO it is limited to cars with similar performance characteristics and price. Sedans, Coupes, New/Used are all fair game; because again the FRS/BRZ is in it's own segment.

In my mind I see something like this when I'm comparing cars:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...1-class-page-3

Regardless of how fast anything gets around a track, ask yourself what your needs are? The WRX vs. 86 can be settled by every individual on their own. Do I need space and / or 4 doors? Or, can I sacrifice practicality for WAY more driving satisfaction?

I think there is some paper racing going on. I don't even consider lightning lap times when shopping for cars. Will I like the car more if it goes around the track quicker? The Miata was very slow for the lightening lap, IIRC, but is a wonderful driver's car.

OK, I haven't owned an 86 or a WRX, but I have had friends with stock and modified WRXs galore. I did track an STI sedan circa 2004(?). Bent some stock ARB links on the first session, in fact. I have owned many FWD and RWD coupes, and AWD sports sedans, mostly German, some Japanese. I'm going on experience, faith, and magazine reviews that the 86 will be satisfying to drive, but, trust me here, a simple RWD coupe is just worlds apart from AWD sedans. Even if they are quick around a track, they are built out of pure compromise.

Everything I've said is pure opinion. People can compare whatever they want. But, free advice from a very experienced car guy: people should decide basic things about what they need and want before shopping for a car... like if they need space / 4 doors / etc., or want a simple FR with sacrifices in practicality. You may end up enjoying either car but they are vastly different.

[86'd]

Originally Posted by nibor33

^ Good rebuttal.


I wouldn't say that the 86 is in its own segment. You really do have the Miata, GC, 370Z, just as Asian imports go. The minivan example is, of course, the most extreme I can come up with, and was somewhat of a joke. But, if you include the WRX, all of the following should be fair game for comparison: Audi A4/S4, BMWs galore, Lexus IS, my goodness the list goes on and on.

I just get the feeling that WRX is included because it is a Subaru, which is arbitrary (except to Subaru fans). The Scion xB is compared by the OP because it is a Scion. Again, some may cross shop *anything* vs. the 86, but, in reality, you're only going to see magazine comparos in the same segment. Most buyers will decide major criteria and cross shop cars in the same segment. For instance, a small luxury sports sedan --> A4, 3 series, IS.


YES. Quite unfortunate.


Regardless of how fast anything gets around a track, ask yourself what your needs are? The WRX vs. 86 can be settled by every individual on their own. Do I need space and / or 4 doors? Or, can I sacrifice practicality for WAY more driving satisfaction?

I think there is some paper racing going on. I don't even consider lightning lap times when shopping for cars. Will I like the car more if it goes around the track quicker? The Miata was very slow for the lightening lap, IIRC, but is a wonderful driver's car.

OK, I haven't owned an 86 or a WRX, but I have had friends with stock and modified WRXs galore. I did track an STI sedan circa 2004(?). Bent some stock ARB links on the first session, in fact. I have owned many FWD and RWD coupes, and AWD sports sedans, mostly German, some Japanese. I'm going on experience, faith, and magazine reviews that the 86 will be satisfying to drive, but, trust me here, a simple RWD coupe is just worlds apart from AWD sedans. Even if they are quick around a track, they are built out of pure compromise.

Everything I've said is pure opinion. People can compare whatever they want. But, free advice from a very experienced car guy: people should decide basic things about what they need and want before shopping for a car... like if they need space / 4 doors / etc., or want a simple FR with sacrifices in practicality. You may end up enjoying either car but they are vastly different.

I pretty much agree with you. Sorry if I came off being a jerk; I've been trying to sell a car and it's not one of my favorite things to do.

People should obviously choose what's best for them, but others are more irrational, favor more power over handling or may sacrifice some space for what they want...regardless if its the best or even makes sense.

In the end I think the xB is a ridiculous comparison and the WRX not as ridiculous. And in fact would allow the inclusion of cars like a used 3 series, or A4, or IS250. Again to me, these are performance sedans but share the same performance and price range as the 86. Some people are on the cusp of a very practical car, and one like the 86 that is kind of practical.

And yes, you're right; these cars are drastically different and practicality has a bit to do with it. Again there's compromises as well. I'd like some more comforts and space that a used 3 series offers but is it worth the lack of "fun" that the 86 might provide? To me and others it might be a closer call than, say it would be for you.

And that's fine.

I see what you're saying but I just think you underestimate how irrational car buying can be. People like me can really mess things up.

[Turbowned]

Hey guys, the BRZ vs. WRX thread is that way --------->

Bottom line on the xB vs. FR-S - drive it and find out. No one's saying you can't go from an exonobox to a sports car, or a convertible to an SUV, or a truck to a hatchback. They just aren't anywhere remotely similar. It all boils down to your wants vs. needs!

[nibor33]

^ LOL @ Turbowned. Sorry for the digression.

So, do we all agree at least that 86 vs. xB is ludicrous? OP was a troll or what?

[SUB-FT86]

SMDH.

[neutron256]

Next we can compare the FR-S and the iQ

[Megalodon]

Originally Posted by SunnyD

I stopped reading after the part about amazing power and spectacular driving experience.

that's when my eyes rolled to the back of my skull and i started convulsing

[FRSDREAMER]

Just get a WRX Hatch.

Fun driving experience and Storage Usability.