Lowering Springs Making Handling Worse?

[wparsons]

You're crossing up posts about different things... I'm not claiming sportlines do any of what you're defending.

For a 1.5" drop on sticky tires on a track, you need MUCH higher spring rates, which will blow the stock shocks in a hurry.

The sportlines are a good spring for anyone not tracking that wants that much of a drop, but they're too soft for the amount of drop for tracking with sticky tires. Their spring rate will definitely not hurt stock shocks. But, if you're tracking with sticky tires they're definitely not ideal. For your usage, I'm sure they work great.

[xxBrun0xx]

[quote=bfrank1972;1861257]

Originally Posted by wparsons

You're missing my point. Will the car work fine on public roads, yes. Is the drop too much for the spring rate and shock travel to work well on a track, also yes. Look at quantitative results (lap times, corner speeds, etc) to see if it actually corners better. An inch of bump travel will be taken up by cornering forces easily, which leaves no bump travel for actual bumps. Any slight bump in a corner (again, on a track... not public roads) is going to upset the chassis in a big way.



You're way wrong if you think you haven't hit the bumpstops at all. The stock (and Eibach) bumpstops are very progressive and designed to be part of the spring rate. On stock suspension there is only like 5mm of bump travel before you touch the bumpstop, which means that with a person in the car you're already touching them. You may not have fully bottomed out, but you're most definitely engaging the bump stops every single time you drive the car.


Here's my car with swift sport springs (1" drop) mid corner in a fairly high g corner, notice how little clearance there is between my bumper and the track on the loaded side. With the tires I'm running (Dunlop ZII's), I really need more spring rate to preserve bump travel with only a 1" drop. If you're not running stick tires on a track, then it's a different story.

No I think I do get your point, I'm just trying to dispel the myths about sportline springs, they work very well:

1) Sportlines won't 'blow' your dampers. It's possible they will shorten damper life yes, but you can probably say that about any lowering springs. As I mentioned before, real life drop between pro-kit, swift, etc and sportlines is not as big as you think.

2) You make the point, with sticky tires and stock suspension, track drivers at the limit are touching bump stops anyway. Yes if the track is rough the shorter springs will probably not comply with the tarmac as well, again this is probably true to a point with any lowering spring, sportlines will be a little worse.

3) Given a good driver who is an experienced track driver, will sportlines be worse than stock all other things equal? Maybe, probably depends a lot on the track. Again one might be able to make the same case about swifts or pro-kits.

4) Comfort level? This is a performance car, pull up your skirt! (just kidding!) The stock car is fairly stiff. Any lowering spring will be stiffer, are the sportline springs stiff? Yes. Do they bother me? Only when I hit tall speed bumps or deep potholes - in reality that bothered me on stock springs, just more so now that I am on the sportlines I don't scrape on anything (although I don't have a low front lip).

Lot's of myth out there - sportline springs won't 'blow' your dampers. sportline springs won't *ruin* handling (nor will any other lowering spring). Possible less than ideal in certain situations with rough roads, but nothing that really affects my driving or enjoyment of the car at all (and I live in the north where plows tear up the roads).

My point is, I spend maybe 300 hours a year in my car. If I'm LUCKY, maybe 3 of those hours will be lapping on a track this year, probably will be less than that. So that's 1% where I'd be worried about extracting the ultimate amount of performance, the other 99% of the time I'm enjoying my car on the streets. It handles brilliantly and looks fantastic with the setup I have - for the non-track-junkie (who really should be running on good coilovers tuned for this car) things like tires and a good performance alignment are a bigger concern rather than comparing swift springs (or other) to sportlines.

By that logic, why would you ever get rid of the stock suspension? You actually paid someone money for springs that give you worse ride quality and handling, void any kind of suspension warranty you had left, AND will inevitably force you to buy new dampers long before you would have to otherwise? Even though you DRIVE your car for significantly more time than you stare at the gap between the fender and the wheel every year? Really??

[bfrank1972]

[quote=xxBrun0xx;1861464]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

By that logic, why would you ever get rid of the stock suspension? You actually paid someone money for springs that give you worse ride quality and handling, void any kind of suspension warranty you had left, AND will inevitably force you to buy new dampers long before you would have to otherwise? Even though you DRIVE your car for significantly more time than you stare at the gap between the fender and the wheel every year? Really??

Hmmm. I'm not sure I 100% follow you and your interpretation of my 'logic', let me break it down for you:

1) Many people (track oriented people too) decide to keep the stock suspension because it just works.

2) Honestly, I paid someone for spring that would get the look I wanted. Couldn't stand the wheel gap (and the stock wheel offset/width). I'm sure many will agree - a big reason why we bought our 86's is that it is a beautiful car, I'm just putting the finishing touches on the look. Oh by the way I have 'heavy' 18" rims too, and the car still handles amazingly well.

3) With the springs, it handles amazingly well. Maybe with the stock springs and the same tires I have, it would handle even better? I doubt I could tell much of a difference 99% of the time I'm driving. I'm not the one saying sportline springs are worse for my handling - quite the contrary, the way it handles now feels much better than when it was stock. Springs + tires + alignment, I don't care which is responsible. The car looks and handles the way I want.

4) 99% of the time I'm driving, I wouldn't feel like I'm driving a 4x4 around. I like driving a nice looking car, for me to see and other to see. If I want to become a track fanatic, I will probably go to a professional who will put quality coilovers on my car, with a good track alignment, track tires, maybe corner balance the thing. I have driven plenty of track and autoX events in my life, but I'm not going to obsess over suspension mechanics that mean something to race drivers but not much to daily drivers. The car feels great!

5) Again, why would I have to buy more dampers? By that time (many miles down the road) I'll probably be on coilovers anyway. Even if I DO spend for dampers, it'll be an upgrade. Don't really care too much about preserving OEM equipment. And wait, where are all these 'failed' OEM dampers anyway. Proof to back all this worrying?

Hope this clears things up. I'm VERY happy with my setup. I'm quite comfortable driving it daily. My dampers are just fine. It corners on rails. My car is not ruined. The sky is not falling.

My message, to all the folks who like the way sportline springs look, if you are a daily driver and not track addicted, they work very well. Don't believe all the sportline naysayers, a large % of them have probably never even had them on their car.

[xxBrun0xx]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

5) Again, why would I have to buy more dampers? By that time (many miles down the road) I'll probably be on coilovers anyway.
...
I'm VERY happy with my setup.

Not happy enough to stick with them, I guess.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by xxBrun0xx

Not happy enough to stick with them, I guess.

Well no one is questioning that good coilovers are superior in every way to springs on stock dampers. There's always something better

[Grim-Reaper]

Any special informations on the RCE yellows? Seem unavailable/unknown in Germany.
Here you can order Eibach ProKit via Toyota dealership, not the sportline.
Other available springs via tuning shops are H&R, Weitec...

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Grim-Reaper

Any special informations on the RCE yellows? Seem unavailable/unknown in Germany.
Here you can order Eibach ProKit via Toyota dealership, not the sportline.
Other available springs via tuning shops are H&R, Weitec...

RCE Yellow springs are:
20mm drop front and rear
4.6 kg/mm front and rear
include replacement bumpstops front and rear

They are a great spring set that improves handling and rides well. Not a huge drop, but that's part of why they work so well.

We are a smaller american shop and our springs are produced here. We have had a few customers in Germany over the years and can ship there. We unfortunately do not have a reseller in Europe at the moment.

- Andy

[Racecomp Engineering]

With regards to Eibach Sportlines...I don't know if I'd say they ruin handling, but if handling and ride comfort is your main goal, I would just choose something else. If you must have the bigger drop, then go for it.

- Andy

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by wparsons

You're missing my point. Will the car work fine on public roads, yes. Is the drop too much for the spring rate and shock travel to work well on a track, also yes. Look at quantitative results (lap times, corner speeds, etc) to see if it actually corners better. An inch of bump travel will be taken up by cornering forces easily, which leaves no bump travel for actual bumps. Any slight bump in a corner (again, on a track... not public roads) is going to upset the chassis in a big way.


You're way wrong if you think you haven't hit the bumpstops at all. The stock (and Eibach) bumpstops are very progressive and designed to be part of the spring rate. On stock suspension there is only like 5mm of bump travel before you touch the bumpstop, which means that with a person in the car you're already touching them. You may not have fully bottomed out, but you're most definitely engaging the bump stops every single time you drive the car.

Here's my car with swift sport springs (1" drop) mid corner in a fairly high g corner, notice how little clearance there is between my bumper and the track on the loaded side. With the tires I'm running (Dunlop ZII's), I really need more spring rate to preserve bump travel with only a 1" drop. If you're not running stick tires on a track, then it's a different story.

I couldn't have said it better. This get's overlooked so often when considering springs for better handling.

My car with RCE Yellows and 245 Bridgestone RE-11A's getting loaded mid-corner on different tracks:





This is with stiffer RCE sway bars installed as well. It's pretty much slammed on the bump stops on the loaded side. There's a good reason why RCE chose a mild drop and it's evidenced perfectly in these pics and this discussion. The preservation of bump travel is imperative for better handling.

[RavioliG]

Originally Posted by wparsons

You're way wrong if you think you haven't hit the bumpstops at all. The stock (and Eibach) bumpstops are very progressive and designed to be part of the spring rate. On stock suspension there is only like 5mm of bump travel before you touch the bumpstop, which means that with a person in the car you're already touching them. You may not have fully bottomed out, but you're most definitely engaging the bump stops every single time you drive the car.

Here's my car with swift sport springs (1" drop) mid corner in a fairly high g corner, notice how little clearance there is between my bumper and the track on the loaded side. With the tires I'm running (Dunlop ZII's), I really need more spring rate to preserve bump travel with only a 1" drop. If you're not running stick tires on a track, then it's a different story.

Great insight, thanks! I guess I don't really know what it feels like to have better suspension.
In that case, I'll definitely be putting on better springs before my trackday later this year. But for the street right now, they function just fine.

[xxBrun0xx]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

Well no one is questioning that good coilovers are superior in every way to springs on stock dampers. There's always something better

But maybe people should? A good spring/damper combo is better than budget coilovers. Also, coilovers need to be rebuilt on a regular basis if you live in an area that's heavily salted during the winter and are typically very expensive. That being said, I agree that springs and dampers that are designed to work together will be better than a mismatched setup.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by RavioliG

Great insight, thanks! I guess I don't really know what it feels like to have better suspension.
In that case, I'll definitely be putting on better springs before my trackday later this year. But for the street right now, they function just fine.

What tires are you running? How much track experience do you have?

On stock tires and a first track day, you'll be fine on sportlines.

[RavioliG]

Originally Posted by wparsons

What tires are you running? How much track experience do you have?

On stock tires and a first track day, you'll be fine on sportlines.

Great, because like I said, I've taken the car countless times to twisty roads in the area and have attacked them quite aggressively. The car handled similar to as it did stock.. (But unknown to me till your comment, I guess I have been loading my bumpstops all the way now... yikes).

I'll be getting new tires before the trackday as mine are kaput right now (Stock tires up front, and RE760's in the rear), and I have had my eye on Pilot SuperSports.
I've been to the track twice with my old RX8, which handled similarly to this car, and I've been autocrossing with this car once after having installed the springs, shorter bumpstops, camber arms, and camber bolts. (I'm running -1.5 degrees all around).
I'm in no way a novice when it comes to driving my car, and wasn't really concerned about my spring selection having a negative impact on my cars handling until........well this thread basically.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by RavioliG

Great, because like I said, I've taken the car countless times to twisty roads in the area and have attacked them quite aggressively. The car handled similar to as it did stock.. (But unknown to me till your comment, I guess I have been loading my bumpstops all the way now... yikes).

I'll be getting new tires before the trackday as mine are kaput right now (Stock tires up front, and RE760's in the rear), and I have had my eye on Pilot SuperSports.
I've been to the track twice with my old RX8, which handled similarly to this car, and I've been autocrossing with this car once after having installed the springs, shorter bumpstops, camber arms, and camber bolts. (I'm running -1.5 degrees all around).
I'm in no way a novice when it comes to driving my car, and wasn't really concerned about my spring selection having a negative impact on my cars handling until........well this thread basically.

Hah, don't worry. That's one reason for my prior 'rants' - these other threads, while validly targeted to the track performance crowd, can cause some hysteria :-D

Bump stops are part of your suspension design, and not just an emergency stop. Yes their ultimate function is to stop the suspension from traveling too far on the stock dampers, but they also have a load curve just like springs. It's steeper but it's not a hard stop - if you're cornering on a smooth road you probably won't even notice. If you are on a bumpy road/track, you may notice it as loss of traction, maybe 'squirreliness'.

Also as mentioned before, you need to be cornering hard enough, on a good enough surface, with good enough tires, to really be loading your suspension that much. Happens all the time to people on a track running max performance tires, might happen with the MPSS, will definitely happen sooner on a sportline equipped car vs a car with stock springs or longer travel coilovers, but it's not going to be disastrous! Might even be a little fun

Go have fun, hit the track, see how it goes, and you'll find out soon enough if you need to upgrade.