FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[Khorne]

This thread taught me a great deal about the workings of the oil in the engine .
A bit of a low tech question but if i was going to run a single oil pressure gauge, where would be the best place to run it considering im booster with a S/C?

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by kiichiro

Fair to say the fa20 in wrx is more track ready out of the box huh?

No not really. You have to remember the FRS/BRZ is an NA car and it's oil pressure is enough for that so there are no issues handling that power level. The 2015 WRX has much more power and the oiling system is barely better. Both are just adequate enough for +75 HP bump or so.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

http://www.slwautomotive.com/products.php

Scroll down to the DC oil pump. 6bar (87psi) max and 125c max will, with an oil cooler before the pump, possibly give you what you want.

Interesting but we would need to know the flow vs. pressure chart. It's one thing to flow 6 bar at 5 gallons a minute and it's another thing to flow 6 bar at 16 gpm. Also the maximum temperature of that pump is much too low.

I don't have the actual details on the FRS/BRZ oil pump but would imagine it's similar to the STi JDM oil pump which is also 12mm and flows about 15.5 gpm at 85 psi. What this is telling us is that the oil volume requirements for these motors is huge.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[EAGLE5]

All true, but I'd look into it. Even if they only do 8gpm at 80 psi, you can run two in parallel for extra flow and both in series with the stock pump or turbo pump. The increase head will make making pressure and flow easy.

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Interesting but we would need to know the flow vs. pressure chart. It's one thing to flow 6 bar at 5 gallons a minute and it's another thing to flow 6 bar at 16 gpm. Also the maximum temperature of that pump is much too low.

I don't have the actual details on the FRS/BRZ oil pump but would imagine it's similar to the STi JDM oil pump which is also 12mm and flows about 15.5 gpm at 85 psi. What this is telling us is that the oil volume requirements for these motors is huge.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

All true, but I'd look into it. Even if they only do 8gpm at 80 psi, you can run two in parallel for extra flow and both in series with the stock pump or turbo pump. The increase head will make making pressure and flow easy.

Typically you don't want your high flow pump before your low flow pump but I have gotten that to work the other way around with fuel pumps. So you could use a lower flow pump to feed a higher pressure/flow pump because pumps will flow higher at lower pressures.

I think something like this would best used to feed the turbocharger so that's one less thing the main pump needs to feed. The temperature limitation is a problem however.

Someone else should test this

[EAGLE5]

Will feeding the turbo with a separate pump solve your pressure problem? RB Racing looks like they have good pumps for the turbo. They're low flow compared to a fill engine pump, though.

I thought it was the other way around for pumps. Hence the low flow, high pressure fuel pump feeding the DI system while the high flow, low pressure pump feeds the port injectors and the high pressure pump. Make sure the high pressure line has plenty of supply via a low pressure, high flow pump.

But I'm sticking NA for now. You're the one with a problem to solve and money to make.

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Typically you don't want your high flow pump before your low flow pump but I have gotten that to work the other way around with fuel pumps. So you could use a lower flow pump to feed a higher pressure/flow pump because pumps will flow higher at lower pressures.

I think something like this would best used to feed the turbocharger so that's one less thing the main pump needs to feed. The temperature limitation is a problem however.

Someone else should test this

[Dephective]

@Element Tuning I'm concerned with your findings. I'm very close to pulling the trigger and going for a turbo setup for track days. Of course I will be running an oil cooler before hitting the track, but I won't have a built motor for a while. Most likely will be running between 7-10psi until motor is built (or I build a separate block). If I were to run 10w-30, have an oil cooler, and run a larger radiator core ( probably dual pass ), would this be adequate or would I still have to run an external pump? If I were to run an external pump, how in the hell would I go about doing this while still leaving A/C intact?

The car is daily driven for now, and will remain that way. Living in Florida, A/C is an absolute must lol.


Edit: it's also worth mentioning the turbo will be oil and water cooled. Larger dual-pass radiator, with oil cooler should drastically lower oil temps, no?

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Will feeding the turbo with a separate pump solve your pressure problem? RB Racing looks like they have good pumps for the turbo. They're low flow compared to a fill engine pump, though.

I thought it was the other way around for pumps. Hence the low flow, high pressure fuel pump feeding the DI system while the high flow, low pressure pump feeds the port injectors and the high pressure pump. Make sure the high pressure line has plenty of supply via a low pressure, high flow pump.

But I'm sticking NA for now. You're the one with a problem to solve and money to make.

Not quite, the low pressure fuel pump (55 psi) in your gas tank feeds both the port fuel injector rail and is also the fuel supply for the high pressure DI pump which is camshaft driven and runs at pressures north of 2500 psi.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Dephective

@Element Tuning I'm concerned with your findings. I'm very close to pulling the trigger and going for a turbo setup for track days. Of course I will be running an oil cooler before hitting the track, but I won't have a built motor for a while. Most likely will be running between 7-10psi until motor is built (or I build a separate block). If I were to run 10w-30, have an oil cooler, and run a larger radiator core ( probably dual pass ), would this be adequate or would I still have to run an external pump? If I were to run an external pump, how in the hell would I go about doing this while still leaving A/C intact?

The car is daily driven for now, and will remain that way. Living in Florida, A/C is an absolute must lol.


Edit: it's also worth mentioning the turbo will be oil and water cooled. Larger dual-pass radiator, with oil cooler should drastically lower oil temps, no?

I can only speak from my experience and running Red Line 40w Race oil I had no problems at 335 whp under severe racing conditions while using no oil cooler. The dyno I use does read about 10% low so there is a little wiggle room in that hp figure.

Now my fingers are crossed for my latest attempt at oil pressure control but honestly if we need to go to an external oil pump, I just do not see a way to do it and keep the AC (on a turbocharged car). Now if every turbo kit was identical or a kit was designed around the external oil pump requirement it could probably be done and the AC salvaged.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I can only speak from my experience and running Red Line 40w Race oil I had no problems at 335 whp under severe racing conditions while using no oil cooler. The dyno I use does read about 10% low so there is a little wiggle room in that hp figure.

Now my fingers are crossed for my latest attempt at oil pressure control but honestly if we need to go to an external oil pump, I just do not see a way to do it and keep the AC (on a turbocharged car). Now if every turbo kit was identical or a kit was designed around the external oil pump requirement it could probably be done and the AC salvaged.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

Will the FA20DIT intake manifold fit on the FA20? It has the air inlet on the back which may provide sufficient room for both the oil pump and AC. I highly doubt you haven't thought of this already, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask.

[Grip Ronin]

curious what was your oil pressure at idle. 210~ oil temp? at 175deg mines in spec but its so low at operating temp. it looks like 2psi idling

[xwd]

Ken Stout Racing ended up with an external oil pump setup run off a custom water pump pulley, but again it required removing the AC. Their supercharger inlet also sits in the AC area and it's a race car so they were already dumping it.

This setup was not exactly the most reliable at first. They had a couple serpentine belt failures which then led to bottom end engine failures, but found a stronger belt and didn't have any issues after that.



They had oiling issues with their car which was running 330-350whp with the supercharger which led to using the custom setup.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Calum

Will the FA20DIT intake manifold fit on the FA20? It has the air inlet on the back which may provide sufficient room for both the oil pump and AC. I highly doubt you haven't thought of this already, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask.

We did look at flipping the OEM manifold but it's a no go so the WRX may be an option for those who have to keep AC. I've been working with our dry sump supplier and we have a pretty solid plan to attack the external pump.

First however I have been testing my "trick" alomg with a Perrin Oil Cooler with positive results. I will share the results shortly....which means when I have time. LOL!

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Grip Ronin

curious what was your oil pressure at idle. 210~ oil temp? at 175deg mines in spec but its so low at operating temp. it looks like 2psi idling

My oiling system is so modified now you can't compare it to stock anymore. I have 20 psi at idle and it will get lower at very high oil temps but even then about 10 psi.

I believe OEM spec is 7-10 psi at 195F.