Starting off in 1st gear

[aristo]

unrelated but still noob question. today I was talking to my coworker who has driven stick for 10 yrs

I asked him if it is okay to add a very slight amount of throttle when changing gears

(I hold a tiny tiny bit of gas at the slip transition point between each gear as the clutch is coming back up)

am I fucking my clutch? LOL

[Ubersuber]

Originally Posted by paulca

I meant over here. If you come up a hill to a set of red traffic lights or a junction and a stationary car in front has it's brake lights on, then they are most likely sitting on the foot brake and will need to transfer to clutch/throttle. If they don't have brake lights on, they are either clutch holding (most likely) or have the handbrake on.

Well, I drive quite a lot in the UK (and NZ) and I've not observed that many twits. Nobody I know in the UK drives as you claim to.

[Ubersuber]

Originally Posted by paulca

Here's a question for you. How do you go up a steep hill in traffic which is rolling at 2-3mph?

I don't. I leave a gap allowing me to drive in first without slipping the clutch. I don't think an automatic will go that slowly so we wouldn't face that situation here, everyone would be going faster than 2 mph or would be stopped.

Only idiots drive at those speeds anywhere, let alone up steep hills.

[Ubersuber]

Originally Posted by paulca

Unlikely I live in Northern Ireland.

Can the Irish drive?

I guess Eddie was Irish and he certainly could drive but I'm positive he didn't ride his clutch.

Innes Ireland, oddly, was a Yorkshireman and not Irish at all. Quick driver though and I am sure he didn't ride his clutch either.

Then there's Derek Daley who certainly could drive and would never ride the clutch.

Yup, the Irish can drive so what is the problem here?

[Ubersuber]

Originally Posted by kcam86

First time driving manual was when I took delivery of the car. I was set on auto prior to buying the car and at thr last moment I switch and said what the hell its meant to be stick. I stalled every light and spun tires like crazy in the rain. I stalled more times than I could count but talk about trial by fire lol

Yup, in fact the more experience you have the trickier it is to drive this car smoothly right away. I still have issues. Driving quickly and driving smoothly are hard to do in this car because the clutch pedal just isn't well designed.

Still, nothing a supercharger won't cure. The launches should be pretty smooth with 260 hp...

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by aristo

unrelated but still noob question. today I was talking to my coworker who has driven stick for 10 yrs

I asked him if it is okay to add a very slight amount of throttle when changing gears

(I hold a tiny tiny bit of gas at the slip transition point between each gear as the clutch is coming back up)

am I fucking my clutch? LOL

Are your shifts smooth and are you dragging the clutch unnecessarily? Those can be difficult to balance i.e. smoothness comes from slipping the clutch a lot so you can re-engage the engine smoothly to the transmission, being quick on the clutch can be jerky which is also not ideal.

The revs drop in this car fairly fast when you clutch in, if you're shifting at a leisurely pace you totally end up nosediving the car as you let off the clutch because the revs dropped too far. Sometimes I give it a bit of gas (~3% maybe) to have the revs in the right spot as I come off the clutch, sometimes I'm shifting fast enough that I don't need to do that.

tl;dr What you're doing isn't unusual, as long as you're not doing typical clutch damagey things your description of your technique seems perfectly valid to me.

Clutches are meant to be used, yes they are relatively expensive to replace but being overly paranoid about clutch wear and giving your passengers whiplash because you don't want to slip a millisecond longer than you have to isn't worth it.

[Ubersuber]

I tried out starting with no throttle application today. As expected, the car rolled off no problem. The idle stabilization software is more than up to the job. In fact, practicing this on level ground (I was on a very slight uphill incline) would be an excellent way to sense the clutch bite point. To start off without using the gas pedal requires that you find and hold the clutch at the bite point for several seconds to allow such low torque output to get the car moving. Try it and see if you are having any difficulty starting off smoothly. I also timed the cold start idle at under 50 seconds at 1,500 rpm and about another 30 seconds at 1,000 rpm before it settled at 700 rpm: ambient was around 25C or 77F. Even at very cold temperatures (minus 30C or so) the cold start idle speed drops to 700 in minutes after start up. DI engines are super clean.

And just BTW, a FI engine DOES NOT NEED, HAVE OR USE ANY CHOKE!!!

A choke, as the name suggests, restricts air supply upstream of the fuel jetting (by choking the opening) so as to draw proportionally more fuel for a given air supply.

A modern electronic FI engine NEVER chokes the air supply upstream of the throttle plate AND ALL fuel metering is done by the ECU nowadays (Bosch K Jetronic was the last pure analogue injection system in use and that used a sort of choke but not for cold starting, only to lift the fuel measuring flap proportionally to the fuel flow required, and even that only lasted until the early 70's when the lambda system was invented requiring a primitive ECU. Cold start enrichment was handled by a separate cold start fuel injector).

Only carburetters (or caburators or carbureters depending on which language of english you write) need or use chokes. Multiple jet type use a simple throttle plate upstream of the jets, CV (constant velocity) types use an obstructor bar upstream of the piston.

[litemup]

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

I tried out starting with no throttle application today. ...

Bravo! 100% agreement/endorsement. Thank you.

Anyone remember the SU, or the Hitachi copy of the SU? Fuel enrichment was accomplished by lowering the orifice into which the tapered needle fit.

[aristo]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Are your shifts smooth and are you dragging the clutch unnecessarily? Those can be difficult to balance i.e. smoothness comes from slipping the clutch a lot so you can re-engage the engine smoothly to the transmission, being quick on the clutch can be jerky which is also not ideal.

The revs drop in this car fairly fast when you clutch in, if you're shifting at a leisurely pace you totally end up nosediving the car as you let off the clutch because the revs dropped too far. Sometimes I give it a bit of gas (~3% maybe) to have the revs in the right spot as I come off the clutch, sometimes I'm shifting fast enough that I don't need to do that.

tl;dr What you're doing isn't unusual, as long as you're not doing typical clutch damagey things your description of your technique seems perfectly valid to me.

Clutches are meant to be used, yes they are relatively expensive to replace but being overly paranoid about clutch wear and giving your passengers whiplash because you don't want to slip a millisecond longer than you have to isn't worth it.

first off, I want you to know you are my favorite person on this forum board because you always answer my dumb qs and write well informed responses in general - Thank you

My shifts are smooth indeed when doing the above mentioned technique and as you stated, I also only give it 3-5% throttle to kind of 'keep the momentum' between each gear so to speak and ONLY for the lower gear shifts

After much reading I know very well that if I went full throttle while at the slip point it would be very hard on the clutch

I was only worried about this because my coworker said the throttle should be completely off when switching gears (now I think he meant when the clutch is on its way down you shouldn't throttle)

[paulca]

I experimented last night with clutch only starts and it is fairly okay going forward, it's harder going in reverse for some reason. I assume reverse is a higher gear as usual.

As to how fast the revs drop when changing gear, doesn't it really depend on how fast you change gear? I find it drops fairly slowly. I'm convinced it (ECU) actually slows the rev drop by delaying throttle release a tiny amount so, if shifting in a "normal" amount of time the revs should have fallen just the right amount.

My last car had a lot of this to make shifting easier and I had to adjust my clutch work for it. I was used to clutching quickly the instant I lifted the throttle, but in that car the revs would rise if you did that. You had to delay the clutch slightly. In fairness it worked perfectly, no lift off jerk and as you selected the next gear the revs had fallen just the right amount for a smooth change. If you were near the red line though and clutched too quickly, it would bounce off the limiter, even without the throttle applied.

To shift I....

Lift off the accel and at basically the same time depress the clutch to prevent any engine braking and pull for neutral (specific to my GT86 and the very low bite point and clutch drag anywhere off the floor) I then floor the clutch for selecting the next gear. Immediately I lift the clutch to halfway up the slippage zone and start applying a little throttle as I release it fully. The trick is not to (a) jerk forward by not reapplying the throttle as the clutch engages but not (b) rev up and slip the clutch unnecessarily.

I don't do "straight through" shifts in the GT, the gear box seems to afford the 2 stage shift. gear to neutral, neutral to gear. I don't slam it into gear either, I "offer it" to the syncro and when it's read it pops in, almost sucks it in.

On topic, when I was learning I got the basics of pulling away and changing gears pretty quickly. What took a lot longer was learning the little nuances that cause jerks and jolts. My first car after my test had loose engine mounts. I swear from throttle off to throttle on the whole gear shifter moved a good 2 inches and you only tried to hold on to it and stop it once as it hurt! If you lifted off the throttle in first you would get a huge jolt forward and another huge jolt when you put the throttle back on. You had to use the clutch a little if you didn't want your passengers to think they were in Waynes World.

It's all about subtle timing. Sure we collectively own fairly modern and fairly new and tight sports cars with decent ECUs which makes it a lot easier, but still driving and shifting smoothly takes time and practice. At this stage I probably couldn't describe exactly how to smooth changes out, except the wooly attempt above. My feet just do it. It's effectively automatic for me.

The trickiest part is drive train slack. Granted our cars are fairly new and tight. Older cars and dingy old vans it's a different story. Any time you go from positive throttle to engine braking you get a jolt due to drive train slack and vice versa going from engine braking to throttle. Much, much more noticable in 1st or 2nd. When newbies get caught in a cycle of this, sometimes setting off, sometimes getting into 2nd, we call it Kangeroo petrol. The trick is to get the timing right and the clutch and throttle smooth.

You can try this if you want, just roll in 1st about 5-10mph and lift your foot off the throttle and then a second later back on and off and on. You'll find the car rocking and jerking you in the seat. Then try it in an 10 year old car and you'll find it's a lot worse, depending on how the engine and gear box mounts have been maintained.

On the topic of the clutch being light, I was under the impression that all new clutches are light. The stiffen up over time as the release springs age. Though I think all of my previous cars had cabled clutches not hydraulic. It's hard to notice as it happens slowly over years. I only really noticed when I changed the clutch in my last car. First time I got into it my clutch foot shot straight to the floor as my motor memory was used to it being stiff. A year later though it was back to normal and stiff.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

Can the Irish drive?

I guess Eddie was Irish and he certainly could drive but I'm positive he didn't ride his clutch.

Innes Ireland, oddly, was a Yorkshireman and not Irish at all. Quick driver though and I am sure he didn't ride his clutch either.

Then there's Derek Daley who certainly could drive and would never ride the clutch.

Yup, the Irish can drive so what is the problem here?

Well, you see, I'm not Irish and neither was Eddie Irvine. I am British and so was Eddie. He lives just up the road from me, or at least his parents do in a village called Conlig, I applied for a job at his indoor karting place years ago and was interviewed by his brother.

His parents house got a brick through the window when the FIA foolishly put a tricolor up for him when he was on the podium one race. Should have been a union flag.

As to whether I claim to be Irish or British depends on where I am and who I'm talking to. I can legally be either, but I hold a British passport currently, but am thinking of applying for my Irish passport as it's easier to travel on. The Irish haven't pissed many people off, but there aren't many places the British haven't pissed off.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by aristo

I was only worried about this because my coworker said the throttle should be completely off when switching gears (now I think he meant when the clutch is on its way down you shouldn't throttle)

D'aww I'm flattered, I try and sometimes I fail spectacularly.


I think you're right, when I was teaching a friend who knew nothing about stick when they went to shift they kept their foot on the gas and the revs shot up as the clutch pedal went down. Bit of a surprise for them as I overlooked that part of the operation, some people simply don't understand the mechanics of what's going on but with a good lesson and practice can do just fine without knowing what's going on.

The only tricks to lengthening the life of your clutch is minimizing the amount of work it has to do: reducing slip time and the difference in speed between the motor and the wheels and that applies whether you're pulling away from a stop sign in a residential neighborhood or heel-toeing into the corkscrew at Laguna Seca.

Edit: @paulca I like your post above and I think you nailed it: it's all in the subtle timing. Everyone has their own rhythm (i.e. I slide the gear lever out and into the next one as fluidly as I can (sometimes aggressive, sometimes gently) vs. you lightly putting it into each stage) and syncing it up with the car can be a heartwarming thing. I drove a Mini Cooper S last week, everything was light and all the engagement points and mechanical feedbacks were timed differently but I could tell a couple hours rowing through the gears and the thing would snick through effortlessly for me, probably more easily and smoothly than my Scion, but that car does have a different set of priorities.

So many cars, so little time.

[paulca]

I'll add that I STILL make mistakes and "dirty" shifts. I jolted myself twice this morning going from 1st to 2nd on a roundabout, a jolt of engine braking as I lifted the clutch and another jolt when I applied the throttle. Just bad timing.

Tired this morning, so that's my excuse, it happens.

[rs999]

Drove the used FR-S to work today. I stalled 3X trying to get out of my neighborhood and stalled entering the work parking lot in front of a bunch of people waiting for me so that they could cross the sidewalk.

First gear on this car is really short(?) maybe only good up to 30 mph. When taking off from lights I'll do the crawl forward hang point thing until I'm rolling. But by the time I'm at 25-30-ish the car is complaining that first gear is too low.

One of my friends that owns a manual car says I could try starting in second so I can avoid the 1-2 shift that is so short. I tried it but you have to rev the car a bit higher than first.

I can't wait for my lunch break so I can practice more.

BTW, this car is very fuel efficient on the highway compared to the GTI. In the GTI I rarely break 31MPG in cruise control. In this car in 6th gear I was seeing 35 MPG, which is a really nice bonus that I probably erased with all my over-revving.