Starting off in 1st gear

[paulca]

Out of interest, all this super sensitivity to clutch wear... a new clutch friction disc costs £80 here. That's about the same as a set of good from brake pads! The clutch cover w/ release springs is another £80. So £160 for a completely new clutch. About $300. If you "abuse it" like we do over here it will still last over 60,000 miles (of UK driving), probably a lot more over there.

Just to put it in perspective.

Fitting costs will vary, but usually it's 1 to 2 hours labour so about £80 / $140.

[Ubersuber]

"Auto choke"?

Which century are talking about here.

FI engines do not have a choke, auto or otherwise.

Cold starts are handled by increasing fuel injector dwell. Direct injection engines require very short periods of cold start injection because the fuel is injected directly into the hot compressed air in the combustion chamber (that would be the "direct" part). The car will most definitely pull immediately from the cold start fast idle speed of around 1,500 rpm.

Automatic idle control is what you may be referring to when you suggest you need to "wait" for the "ECU to kick in" and, newsflash, the ECU operates the idle stabilization software (and everything else it needs to do) immediately and seamlessly, the rpm signal is constantly fed to the ECU circuit that controls the idle stabilization device. The ECU "wakes up" as soon as you start the key and does everything it needs to do more quickly than human perception can notice.

Nobody with half a brain holds a manual transmission car on a hill by using the clutch.

If you do then you are just wrong.

Regardless of how cheaply you think you can have a clutch disc replaced (and you forgot to include the other parts you need, not to mention the machining or replacement of your burned flywheel) it will still need replacing much sooner than it otherwise would and only because you don't understand how the clutch is designed to work.

[nick_318is]

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

Nobody with half a brain holds a manual transmission car on a hill by using the clutch.

If you do then you are just wrong.

Regardless of how cheaply you think you can have a clutch disc replaced (and you forgot to include the other parts you need, not to mention the machining or replacement of your burned flywheel) it will still need replacing much sooner than it otherwise would and only because you don't understand how the clutch is designed to work.

This is correct, do not hold yourself on a hill by slipping the clutch. I personally just make a quick transition from brake to gas on a hill with very little roll back, as you drive a clutch more this should get easier. If you can't do it use the handbrake and save your clutch.

[kcam86]

First time driving manual was when I took delivery of the car. I was set on auto prior to buying the car and at thr last moment I switch and said what the hell its meant to be stick. I stalled every light and spun tires like crazy in the rain. I stalled more times than I could count but talk about trial by fire lol

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

"Auto choke"?
Which century are talking about here.

It's a term. Okay, so I'm not old enough to have owned a car with a choke, but I do own a motorbike with a choke. It's just a term I use and it's effectively accurate, though not precise. Richer mixture and higher idle when cold and yes I know DI helps as the fuel atomizes better from the injector than it would from a cold carb jet.

Automatic idle control is what you may be referring to when you suggest you need to "wait" for the "ECU to kick in" and, newsflash, the ECU operates the idle stabilization software (and everything else it needs to do) immediately and seamlessly, the rpm signal is constantly fed to the ECU circuit that controls the idle stabilization device. The ECU "wakes up" as soon as you start the key and does everything it needs to do more quickly than human perception can notice.

Ok. If that were true then when I bite the clutch enough to lower the revs then the revs shouldn't lower at all, the ECU idle control should correct it instantly. In my car it doesn't. It will come to laboring and rattling before it rolls and after about a second the ECU adds throttle and the revs pick up, THEN and only then am I able to get the car to roll with the clutch alone. Drop the clutch and the engine revs up a little before the ECU removes the extra throttle.

Bear in mind that different countries use different ECU set ups for regulations such as emissions etc.

Nobody with half a brain holds a manual transmission car on a hill by using the clutch.

If you do then you are just wrong.

That's a sweeping statement that pretty much covers most of the drivers in UK.

Lets be clear. On a slight hill. Momentarily or for 5 or 10 seconds, fine. For ages, minutes at a time, bad. On a steep hill, for a moment fine, for longer than 3 seconds bad. It just depends on the load the clutch is taking and how accurately you can control the revs. On a steep hill like a 1:10 or steeper, probably best not to sit on the clutch for every long at all. In fact it's best to plan so you don't have to stop as holding or not it's going to put a lot of load through the clutch getting away up a very steep hill.

In my lessons, both learner and advanced the same advice was given. "If you can see you will be stopped for only a moment AND you can roll to a stop with clutch and throttle ready to hold, then hold. If the pause becomes a wait, handbrake and possibly neutral." and when setting off again, hold it on the clutch, drop the handbrake a few seconds before you expect to move so you are ready to go.

Do the brake to throttle rollback shuffle and you will fail a driving test for poor car control. Hold on the clutch instead for a few seconds, fine. Sit on the clutch for a whole traffic light cycle, you might fail, but probably a minor fault of which you are allowed at most 7.

I have watch countless videos from American's on "How to drive stick" and very very few don't leave me cringing. Some of the crap you come out with in bizarre. Stick to autos I'd say.

Regardless of how cheaply you think you can have a clutch disc replaced (and you forgot to include the other parts you need, not to mention the machining or replacement of your burned flywheel) it will still need replacing much sooner than it otherwise would and only because you don't understand how the clutch is designed to work.

Have you replaced a clutch in a car? I have. It cost me £140 fitted for new pressure plate/springs/cover and friction plate, took just over an hour while I waited. I have never heard of anyone damage or replace a release bearing or flywheel. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've not heard of it. I've driven some pretty old beat up and abused cars towards the end of their lives and never had an issue with a release bearing or flywheel.

You guys seem to treat manuals as some precious fragile novelty. It's just a normal car to us. Everyone drives them from 17 year old school girls to grey haired 90 year old grannies. Our roads are tight, narrow, hilly. Our towns narrow, clogged, densely populated, congested, covered in traffic lights, junctions on hills, roundabouts, most of the towns roads placed before we had cars or even carts in some places, towns and roads that are many, centuries old. When Europe didn't enough know the Americas existed. We don't have the luxury of selecting big flat expanses and laying massive highways with graded junctions and grid blocked cities. We have to adapt our roads for traffic and take what we get. All of this makes our driving style a LOT different. If that means it's harder on clutches, then boo bloody hoo, it's a wear item.

I don't see you bitching about brake pads. There are many a dumb technique for saving those too that will fail your driving test also.

So when it comes down to where I will go for advice on driving, I can stop anyone in the street here and they will have driven a manual their whole lives. I can ask a driving instructor or advanced instructor, I can ask a police pursuit driver, but I sure as hell will not take "Driving stick" advice from an American.

[paulca]

Here's a question for you. How do you go up a steep hill in traffic which is rolling at 2-3mph?

[Frishkorn]

I'd love to know where on earth in the US we could get a clutch replaced for $300. Here it runs between $800 - $1200 USD unless you do it yourself.

[Frishkorn]

Originally Posted by paulca

Here's a question for you. How do you go up a steep hill in traffic which is rolling at 2-3mph?

You wait until the cars are far enough ahead of you before moving. That way you can cost along at 10+ MPH.

I hate when people inch forward for no reason. Wait for the light and fucking drive like you have a sense of purpose.

[Manic]

If you're still having issues finding your clutch's bite point, you can go to an empty parking lot and practice reversing.

Make sure that you're properly looking behind yourself with your arm on the passenger seat and head turned over your shoulder. You're not allowed to look at the tach. Just practice reversing and stopping over and over. This way you get a feel for your engine speed and bite point without needing visual queues. Plus, it's a lot easier to set off in reverse in my opinion so you won't really need to give it the beans to get it going.

Once you have that down, it should make starting in 1st a lot easier. Did for me, at least.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Frishkorn

You wait until the cars are far enough ahead of you before moving. That way you can cost along at 10+ MPH.

I hate when people inch forward for no reason. Wait for the light and fucking drive like you have a sense of purpose.

Yea that works, and is great for fuel economy. But it has it's limits.

A lot of our junctions are narrow, blind, up hill and "Give way", no traffic lights. Sometimes traffic lights would be welcomed trust me. Basically one or two cars get away at a time and everyone moves up and repeats. At rush hour it's too busy to leave big gaps, people will just fill them.

So you have to creep along on the clutch, up hill with everyone else and feel sorry for the learners stopping every time, putting the handbrake on, neutral, 1st, bite, drop it, go, repeat 50 times. You also cringe as the car in front is sitting on the brake pedal and you've stopped pretty close! I trust people sitting on the clutch here or the handbrake, but I don't trust them sitting on the brakes on hills. I haven't hand anyone roll back into me, but I've had some come too close.

Surely you have roads like this in the US.

How do I know they are on the hand brake and not the clutch? Well if you lived in a country that actually used them you'd know.

[Manic]

This you, paul?

[Phantobe]

Originally Posted by Manic

If you're still having issues finding your clutch's bite point, you can go to an empty parking lot and practice reversing.

Make sure that you're properly looking behind yourself with your arm on the passenger seat and head turned over your shoulder. You're not allowed to look at the tach. Just practice reversing and stopping over and over. This way you get a feel for your engine speed and bite point without needing visual queues. Plus, it's a lot easier to set off in reverse in my opinion so you won't really need to give it the beans to get it going.

Once you have that down, it should make starting in 1st a lot easier. Did for me, at least.

I got stuck on the 91 West yesterday for like an hour with very slow moving traffic. So that helped a bit haha.

I think I'll get down eventually just going to take lots of driving, getting much better at hills now. Reverse is cake. Wish our cars idled a bit higher.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Manic

This you, paul?

Unlikely I live in Northern Ireland.

[Manic]

Originally Posted by Phantobe

I got stuck on the 91 West yesterday for like an hour with very slow moving traffic. So that helped a bit haha.

I think I'll get down eventually just going to take lots of driving, getting much better at hills now. Reverse is cake. Wish our cars idled a bit higher.

Tell me about it, lol. For the last month or so I've been taking the 15 South to the 91 West (Commute from Temecula to Fountain Valley). Nothing like getting stuck on that the 15 to 91 connector ramp to give you some good hill start practice.