A worry I have; Is it too good?

[bestwheelbase]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

Is the car just too good to recapture the essence of those old fun-to-drive cars from our past?

First of all -- great post. Secondly, to answer your question, Yes -- it will be too good (too new, too not-totally-ratted-out-like-an-old-beater-that-warms-the-heart-but-definitely-not-your-hands-or-feet) to have that same type of charm. It will have it's own sort of charm, and character, which we will all come to know.

We'll make new memories. And hopefully we'll never forget where we came from.

Remember, in a few month's time there will be BRZ and FRS running around the US being neglected and driven on mis-matched tires just like the Corolla you're speaking of.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by tree fingers

Air bags for when you can't drive properly? How about, "Airbags for when a drunk asshole hits you, so that maybe you don't die".

Otherwise, I tend to agree with you. There are too many driving aids on newer cars, but is it making the current generation "retarded"? I'm not so sure. There are a million other things of greater causal power that affect "the current generation[being] retarded" than simply cars that are easy to drive.

ok well the airbags thing was more i wanted to follow my stupid "hey genius ..." comments lol.

and yeah that was more of a rant that kind of got off topic about how current generation of kids are more retarded now because everythings become oversimplified for them.

[nibor33]

I can echo some of the sentiments the OP had, and some of the replies here. I've had a lot of cars, and many were German. I thought my S4 wasn't all that fun because it was heavy, AWD, and too calm at speed. So I got an M Coupe and then a Cayman... thinking that going to RWD and then mid-engined (for that smaller moment of inertia) would be much more fun. I found out that I could never push the Cayman without being very, very unreasonable on public roads. (I've had my share of track time, I'm referring to daily driving only).

Then I realized I missed my Miata more than anything. And, especially, when it was on snow tires in dry weather. With a small child, I need a back seat, if just for occasional use. The BRZ just seemed so perfectly timed.

I was actually a little uneasy when I read the great slalom and lateral G numbers that the BRZ posted. I mean, I want the light weight, low COG and moment of inertia, great handling, and intense feedback, but, it does make me worry it's too capable to enjoy on a daily basis.

That sense of being at the limit is really the most fun, for me. If I can be at 9/10ths at 45 mph on a ramp instead of at 90 mph, it will happen more often - without catching the car in front of me, getting tickets, or feeling like I'm cheating death.

[blu_]

I don't know draco... I always appreciate your posts, whether on IWSTI, Vorschalg, or here, but while I agree with the whole idea of capturing the basics of a drivers car, I do think that this kind of hype is getting a bit overblown. Being slow really isn't a great thing, but everything is about compromises and this car hits the nail on the head for me with what is offered and what has been given up, in favor of price and purity.

That said, I think my point is that nostalga about your fist fun car is something that is soooo irrational you cant quantify it and compare it to this car. That and the title of the thread sounds a bit to fanbois

[nibor33]

Originally Posted by blu_

That and the title of the thread sounds a bit to fanbois

LOL, I clicked on this thread just to get a good laugh... sounded silly to me, too.

But, I think he's probably talking about almost all new cars being a little too capable, and a little too disconnected. I don't want to artificially make the car "bad" or "slow." It's just that when a car has more grip than you need, it's not as much fun - to me - different people enjoy all sorts of different aspects of cars.

[Allch Chcar]

Gentlemen, welcome to growing old. Good post Draco and nice job on the thread title.

[bestwheelbase]

Originally Posted by nibor33

That sense of being at the limit is really the most fun, for me. If I can be at 9/10ths at 45 mph on a ramp instead of at 90 mph, it will happen more often...

Yep. The horsepower war has it's place, but so too is there a need for cars that aren't so focused on outright max velocity and power output. Less is more, less is more.

Just the mere fact that we're having conversations like this one is evidence enough that Toyota & Subaru are on to something good here.

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by blu_

I don't know draco... I always appreciate your posts, whether on IWSTI, Vorschalg, or here, but while I agree with the whole idea of capturing the basics of a drivers car, I do think that this kind of hype is getting a bit overblown. Being slow really isn't a great thing, but everything is about compromises and this car hits the nail on the head for me with what is offered and what has been given up, in favor of price and purity.

That said, I think my point is that nostalga about your fist fun car is something that is soooo irrational you cant quantify it and compare it to this car. That and the title of the thread sounds a bit to fanbois

Well, the Corolla was far from my first car, or my first fun car. But it's fun per dollar or level of absurdity was pretty high. It will be hard to beat.

My first (and second) car was an '87 Nissan Pulsar. It was FWD but it was a pretty cool car because you could take the T-tops off and the rear deck lid and cruise around in what felt like a skateboard. After those I got a '98 Trans Am. So I had plenty of power there. And I've had quite a bit in between as well. It's just that the corolla had some indefinable element that's hard to find.

As the hype goes, it is pretty high for a new car. But it's not often a new car comes out with a near perfect record on reviews. I just look at how the car is built, what its goals are, and how well it seems to be designed for that goal, and use that to temper the hype. I dreamed about an STI for 4 years. And when I finally got one it still exceeded my expectations. I think I have reasonable expectations for the BRZ.

But you can never be sure of the "x-factor" (as Top Gear likes to put it) until you actually sit in a car and drive it.

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Gentlemen, welcome to growing old. Good post Draco and nice job on the thread title.

Thanks, I knew it would tweak a few noses out of joint.

Originally Posted by bestwheelbase

Yep. The horsepower war has it's place, but so too is there a need for cars that aren't so focused on outright max velocity and power output. Less is more, less is more.

Just the mere fact that we're having conversations like this one is evidence enough that Toyota & Subaru are on to something good here.

A local forum I'm on is full of drag racers and f-bodies, and other fast cars. There are two threads around 200 posts long each about the BRZ/FR-S on it. This car has had more discussion on that board than most other cars, and it only has 200hp. The BRZ is a very polarizing car because it give the horsepower war the finger. We'll see if it can keep this level of interest up once they are on the roads and at AutoXes. I don't think it'll be a flop; my ride in one pretty much made me sure of that. But will it just be mediocre? We shall see.

[Dave-ROR]

This is a concern I have as well to a point.

My S2000 was too good for the street. You had to break several laws to have fun with it on public roads and when not pushing it the car was pretty boring since the limits were so high.

Since the focus was on having fun at lower limits though I'm hoping this car will be perfect. 200HP isn't that much considering the weight, I do not want a RWD Fit.. it'd be fun on the street but painful on the track :P

In terms of my 3 favorite cars to drive on the street that I've owned I'd probably order them:
1. ITR
2. 88 Conquest TSi
3. 85 Toyota Cressida

None of those are the fastest cars I've owned though.

[random]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

...
So how much of the fun did I experience in that beat-up rustbucket of an AE86 was due to the absurdity of it?
...

It sounds to me that the main reason why your old Corolla was so much fun was because it wasn't expected to perform well since it was ostensibly a piece of crap. The second reason is that it only cost you $900 + a decent pizza. Because of those two reasons, you drove it with insanity, so your delight in the car is a direct reflection of your experience greatly exceeding your already low expectations.

And now, you're worried about the BRZ because the expectations are so high. And even if it meets your expectations, you're afraid that it won't beat your expectations as much as your old Corolla did.

Go buy that old Corolla back!

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

This is a concern I have as well to a point.

My S2000 was too good for the street. You had to break several laws to have fun with it on public roads and when not pushing it the car was pretty boring since the limits were so high.

Since the focus was on having fun at lower limits though I'm hoping this car will be perfect. 200HP isn't that much considering the weight, I do not want a RWD Fit.. it'd be fun on the street but painful on the track :P

In terms of my 3 favorite cars to drive on the street that I've owned I'd probably order them:
1. ITR
2. 88 Conquest TSi
3. 85 Toyota Cressida

None of those are the fastest cars I've owned though.

Sounds a bit like the case where it's more fun to drive a slow car fast, than it is to drive a fast car slow. That said, I'm sure on a race track you want to be able to drive a fast car fast. :happy0180:

[nibor33]

Originally Posted by random

Sounds a bit like the case where it's more fun to drive a slow car fast, than it is to drive a fast car slow. That said, I'm sure on a race track you want to be able to drive a fast car fast.

Well said, and more succinctly than I.

Most important for me on the the track was a feeling that the other drivers had equal cars, or at least we all had the potential to have equally fast cars. I raced a formula continental, an awfully fast car on a track by my standards. (See avatar for a pic of a continental).

On the street, I'm not competing. At all. It's for pleasure while getting from A to B. I respect Dave's opinions, but I think that I could really like a RWD Fit. I know I don't want another Cayman, so if this car's limits are 90% of that, I could be mildly disappointed. I'd most like a 2+2 miata. I hope that's what the BRZ feels like.

[Turbowned]

Here's a list of notable sports cars I've owned in the past 6 years (my 20's) and it should give you an idea of why this car seems so perfect to me:

1989 Toyota MR2 Supercharged: 2500lbs, 145hp, 0-60 in 6.5sec
1994 Toyota MR2 Turbo: 2900lbs, 200hp, 0-60 in 6.2sec
1990 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II: 2800lbs, 200hp, 0-60 in 6.2sec
1989 BMW 325i 2dr: 2800lbs, 168hp, 0-60 in 8.5sec
1973 Datsun 240Z: 2300lbs, 150hp, 0-60 in 8.9sec

Now I can have the same performance that I've loved, but in a brand new car that doesn't break down once a month? AWESOME.

[BRZfan]

Gosh, after all the cars I have had, I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Everyone should get a chance to read this thread again. And so, I post.

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Gentlemen, welcome to growing old. Good post Draco and nice job on the thread title.

False.
I track 911s, m3, Brz and my turbo 280zx and am giddy like a five year old, especiallly the Brz...

Get impractical, it's worth it
I can't wait to track it after its supercharged