Clutch Issue with Dealer and HPDE

[Celadrielas]

So I'm joining this TV show already in progress. -- Original post has been edited to ask removal, so I have not seen pictures. I am of the opinion that should I HPDE my car (Which I eventually will) and if something breaks (Which could happen), I should seek out assistance as you did. However, I will not be returning it to stock, removing stickers, ect because that is an act of fraud. You are being misleading if you do that. That being said, my car is almost completely stock and I am also of the opinion that my CAI should not cause my brakes to melt, for example. Relation matters -- at least it should.

Now, How I would approach this would be vague but honest. Statements like "I am hearing a rattle in my trunk" is a truth. Look, there it is. -- From here they will do their inspection and ask questions as needed. Should they ask, "Have you taken this vehicle racing?" and I had done a HPDE event (Which I do not consider racing either), I would tell them, "No. I have not taken the vehicle to participate in racing events. However I did participate in a high performance driving course to make sure I can handle the vehicle appropriately as needed." -- Because that's honest. It states that IMO I have not raced, but this is what I *HAVE* done, and allows them to make a classification of definition for the activity themselves.

I feel for you. I had a clutch explode coming back to AZ from CA while driving my 2007 2.5i Impreza. it sucked and I did fight the dealer. I was awarded assistance but not full coverage. They were able to determine my vehicle was not "Misused" but because the vehicle clutch had significant aging, I was partially responsible as "wear and tear". I know it's expensive and I would likely fight too for this car. The reason: Worst they can tell me is no. A firm no knowing I tried, to me, is better than a soft no because I never tried. Ultimately the answer given is the answer given. I won't bounce dealer to dealer and find out which parent will give me cookies with my milk.

And you do have to own responsibility for your actions as they are. ESPECIALLY when your own sig has you describing your vehicle as "2013 Scion FRS - Black (Track Weapon)".

I've tracked every car I've owned but this one. But I have to be responsible for my actions like every other Richard, bob, or harry out there. Remember that dealer service guys drive these cars too. Dealer reps are often on forums as drivers.

[yzarc0g]

Originally Posted by Celadrielas

I am of the opinion that should I HPDE my car (Which I eventually will) and if something breaks (Which could happen), I should seek out assistance as you did. However, I will not be returning it to stock, removing stickers, ect because that is an act of fraud. You are being misleading if you do that. That being said, my car is almost completely stock and I am also of the opinion that my CAI should not cause my brakes to melt, for example. Relation matters -- at least it should.

You're making a mistake. They will not cover it. Some might, this dealer wouldn't though.
FYI "Back to stock" means taking off a sticker I put on, and putting new brake pads on the car. Thats the extent of my "mods" besides tint.

Removing stickers and putting new brake pads on the car is not fraud. Period. Just like providing only as much info as needed (which I did) is not fraud.

[yzarc0g]

Originally Posted by Celadrielas

Should they ask, "Have you taken this vehicle racing?" and I had done a HPDE event (Which I do not consider racing either), I would tell them, "No. I have not taken the vehicle to participate in racing events. However I did participate in a high performance driving course to make sure I can handle the vehicle appropriately as needed."

They'll F you on that one too


Thanks for all the input all, I mean it. It really shows this is a hot issue that isn't clear cut.

[extrashaky]

Take it to arbitration. You don't have to simply accept what the dealer or manufacturer tells you. If you disagree with their assessment, file an arbitration case and try to make them fix it under warranty or reimburse you for what you paid. Usually the manufacturer pays for the arbitration in exchange for you giving up your right to fight them in court.

There should be some information for filing a claim in your sales contract. Often you can get an attorney to give you some advice on filing one of these claims for no or minimal cost. To me, $1,100 would be worth the money to pursue that.

Regarding the fraud issue, the legal definition of civil fraud includes intentional deception or concealment of material information in order to cause another party to act to your benefit. You did lie about tracking the car in order to get service, but if the fact that you tracked it isn't material (relevant), then it wouldn't be fraud. The fact that you lied about it might complicate matters in arbitration, though, because it makes it look like you had something to hide.

[Reaper]

if they dealer denies warranty work because of aftermarket parts the dealer BY US LAW must prove the aftermarket parts caused the part in question to fail.


BUT the dealer can also look at tire and brake wear and determine "abuse". So its a two way street.


If they say in writing the aftermarket parts caused your clutch to fail then you can win that.


But if they say tire wear indicates abuse then you cant refute that.


You should have been nicer to your dealer. My dealer warranties all sortsa stuff for me but then again I remove and replace all my warrantied parts and they just give the paid time to who ever is low that week. No I will not disclose what dealer I use so don't even ask.

[yzarc0g]

Originally Posted by Reaper

You should have been nicer to your dealer. My dealer warranties all sortsa stuff for me but then again I remove and replace all my warrantied parts and they just give the paid time to who ever is low that week. No I will not disclose what dealer I use so don't even ask.

I wasn't angry with them until the service manager said "YEAH I THINK ITS WEAR AND TEAR AND I TOLD THE REP ITS WEAR AND TEAR. DID YOU TAKE THIS CAR TO THE RACETRACK!?"

I found a good dealer to go to should I have another issue. It's not this one.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Reaper

But if they say tire wear indicates abuse then you cant refute that.

Sure you can. You can sit down in front of an arbitrator and say, "I refute that. Driving on a track for a driving class is not abuse." Then you can show the arbitrator Toyota promotional materials showing people driving the car on a track, and you can bring along a mechanic to testify that your driving couldn't have caused the clutch disc to explode like that without a defect in manufacturing.

[Reaper]

what I ment was your ability to win that fight is not that good.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Reaper

what I ment was your ability to win that fight is not that good.

Are you sure? I think it's worth a shot. "Abuse" is such a vague term that I would expect it to be difficult for a dealer to prove it, especially considering how this car is designed and marketed. And even if they proved he abused the car, I don't see how a clutch disc would explode like that without a manufacturing defect.

The worst that could happen is that he loses the arbitration case and is out the time it takes to prepare and show up for it, or maybe the money for a mechanic to testify on his behalf as an expert witness. Again, $1,100 seems like it would be worth pursuing. And then he should come back here and tell us how it went.

[stugray]

I think the #1 biggest piece of evidence in this entire argument is in the OP's sig.:
"2013 Scion FRS - Black (Track Weapon)"

You are essentially telling the world that you abuse your car, since the adjective "Weapon", in this context, connotates being very good, and that doesnt come without a lot of practice.

They could deny warranty work for that alone, and it would probably stand up to the arbitration (win to their side).

[yzarc0g]

Originally Posted by stugray

I think the #1 biggest piece of evidence in this entire argument is in the OP's sig.:
"2013 Scion FRS - Black (Track Weapon)"

You are essentially telling the world that you abuse your car, since the adjective "Weapon", in this context, connotates being very good, and that doesnt come without a lot of practice.

They could deny warranty work for that alone, and it would probably stand up to the arbitration (win to their side).

They did deny the warranty work, but who said going to the racetrack is abuse? That is awful subjective. People ride bicycles on the racetrack during a open track camp night, but that doesn't mean they're racing.

Good point on the signature thing. However, this forum doesn't have my name or vin on it. But you are right, it wouldn't help me.

My whole issue is that I wasn't given the chance to argue any of this. (Excluding next step - arbitration). The dealer and rep agreed on something that I didn't think was fair or clear-cut. I wasn't allowed to speak to the rep, see an e-mail stating denied claim, or get a 2nd opinion.

Then, when I called toyota, they spoke to the same people who denied me in the first place and then said that I was denied...

We talk about "burden of proof" and things like this but I suppose thats ALL during arbitration, because I was given no choices or chances here by this dealer and the whole dealer -> rep -> toyota process.