CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[Racecomp Engineering]

For a good auto-x/track/dailydriver mix, -2.0 degrees camber front and approx -1.75 in the rear with 0 toe is about right. More camber up front would help but past -2.0 you begin to see some uneven wear.

You would need camber plates or camber bolts to get -2.0 up front. Just bolts and I think you'll be closer to -1.5...which isn't bad but -2.0 is much more fun.

Without rear lower control arms to adjust with you may end up around -1.8 to -2.0, which isn't bad either.

- Andy

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

guys I'm blind


there used to be a thread that had all the swaybars listed for comparison and I can't find it now.. plz help?

Here you go.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49659

[Malt]

For those of us with camber plates and slotted mounting holes/camber bolts would there be any benefit to adjust for positive camber at the strut and then dial that positive camber back to negative with the camber plates to get the scrub radius to a minimum?

[1Cor10:23]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

For a good auto-x/track/dailydriver mix, -2.0 degrees camber front and approx -1.75 in the rear with 0 toe is about right. More camber up front would help but past -2.0 you begin to see some uneven wear.

You would need camber plates or camber bolts to get -2.0 up front. Just bolts and I think you'll be closer to -1.5...which isn't bad but -2.0 is much more fun.

Without rear lower control arms to adjust with you may end up around -1.8 to -2.0, which isn't bad either.

- Andy

Going to install camber plates and RLCAs next week - should I remove my front camber bolts or leave them in there for future in case I want to dial in more camber?

Looking to do the 2.0/1.75 you recommended.

Thanks!

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by 1Cor10:23

Going to install camber plates and RLCAs next week - should I remove my front camber bolts or leave them in there for future in case I want to dial in more camber?

Looking to do the 2.0/1.75 you recommended.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Malt

For those of us with camber plates and slotted mounting holes/camber bolts would there be any benefit to adjust for positive camber at the strut and then dial that positive camber back to negative with the camber plates to get the scrub radius to a minimum?

Kind of an answer to both questions here.

It is a good idea to get more of your camber from the lower mount via bolts or a slotted mount. You will probably need to still move your plates in a bit, but get the majority down low.

Also, it's better to make sure the plates are set even and then fine tune with bolts to make sure you're good side-to-side.

- Andy

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Also, it's better to make sure the plates are set even and then fine tune with bolts to make sure you're good side-to-side.

- Andy

Are the bolts capable of finer correction than the plates are?

[1Cor10:23]

Originally Posted by Malt

Chalk it up to the awesomeness that is @Raceseng cascam! I'll admit they are expensive but my god are they worth it!.

Hey Malt, did you max them out? Is there a sweet spot or is this one of those things that you want to max out within reason?

Cheers.

[Malt]

Originally Posted by 1Cor10:23

Hey Malt, did you max them out? Is there a sweet spot or is this one of those things that you want to max out within reason?

Cheers.

Actually my camber plates are set at 0 camber atm! I had enough adjustment in the T2 slots to get -2 like I wanted. I am however enjoying the 7 degrees of caster the plates gave me.

Before I goto VIR in sept I'll go get another alignment for -3 up front and I'll obviously have to use the plates for adjustment then.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Are the bolts capable of finer correction than the plates are?

It's more important that the plates are "even" since they have an effect on roll center location and it's nice if it's in the middle of the car.

- Andy

[Racecomp Engineering]

Getting more of your camber from the plates would give you a higher roll center, but getting more from the lower mounts gives you a better SAI. For most people the better SAI is the better deal.

If you're very low it could better to use the plates and have a slightly higher roll center. Also could be a little track dependent.

- Andy

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

It's more important that the plates are "even" since they have an effect on roll center location and it's nice if it's in the middle of the car.

- Andy

Ah, didn't know that. Thank you.

Actually, I don't understand. Either one will make the knuckle pivot inwards on the lower ball joint. If you draw a line between the lower ball joint and the strut top nut, a camber bolt would effectively fold that line at the lower strut bolt, whereas a camber plate would tilt the entire line inwards by moving the top nut. Either way, the effect at the lower ball joint is the same. How does one affect roll center location and not the other?

edit: How did you answer my question before I asked it? Is that because you're on the east coast?

[1Cor10:23]

Originally Posted by Malt

Actually my camber plates are set at 0 camber atm! I had enough adjustment in the T2 slots to get -2 like I wanted. I am however enjoying the 7 degrees of caster the plates gave me.

Before I goto VIR in sept I'll go get another alignment for -3 up front and I'll obviously have to use the plates for adjustment then.

Actually, was referring to caster haha. Should've been more clear.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Ah, didn't know that. Thank you.

Actually, I don't understand. Either one will make the knuckle pivot inwards on the lower ball joint. If you draw a line between the lower ball joint and the strut top nut, a camber bolt would effectively fold that line at the lower strut bolt, whereas a camber plate would tilt the entire line inwards by moving the top nut. Either way, the effect at the lower ball joint is the same. How does one affect roll center location and not the other?

Changing camber at the lower mount doesn't necessarily affect strut angle or the lower link angle.

Originally Posted by gramicci101

edit: How did you answer my question before I asked it? Is that because you're on the east coast?

I'm just so damn good!

(someone PMed a similar question and I decided to post the answer here)

- Andy

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Changing camber at the lower mount doesn't necessarily affect strut angle or the lower link angle.

- Andy

So, using Fig. 14 as an example, you would dial in more camber at the plate by moving the thrust bearing towards the vehicle centerline, right? That doesn't change the angle of the transverse link, so the center line of the virtual reaction point stays the same. However, it changes the angle of the steering axis. It also pushes the tire pivot point (intersection of steering axis and ground) towards the outside of the vehicle, because that line is pivoting on the lower ball joint.

It looks like the line between the virtual reaction point and the thrust bearing is at a right angle to the steering axis. If so, the change in steering axis angle would bring the virtual reaction point closer to the vehicle centerline, and when you draw the connection between the new virtual reaction point and the new tire pivot point, you get a higher intersection with the vehicle centerline, which means a higher roll center.

Am I correct? Is that small amount of change significant enough to produce major changes to the roll center?

If that is how it works and I'm not actually plummeting down the rabbit hole, then changes at the upper strut mount bolt (camber bolt) would serve to lower the roll center very slightly. Since the strut is not directly connected to the transverse link and lower ball joint, instead being connected to the knuckle, which is connected to the lower ball joint, adding negative camber at the camber bolt will fold the line a little at the other strut mounting bolt and bring the steering axis just a hair closer to vertical, which would push the virtual reaction point further out, which would lower the roll center just a little. Or is that change so minor that it's only interesting in theory? Would the negative roll center change from the camber bolt sufficiently offset the positive change from the camber plate?

I'm not at home or I could draw pictures of what I'm talking about to better demonstrate that I'm not crazy.