Clutch Issue with Dealer and HPDE

[ZionsWrath]

Although I don't have links I have seen at least 1 other clutch that failed similar to your picture.

Not sure what that means, just mentioning it.

Good luck OP. Let us know how it turns out and if you end up with an OEM or aftermarket clutch.

[AznBRZer]

Suggestion for the OP: buy an A/T next time. That way, you won't have a clutch to destroy!

[wheelhaus]

An HPDE event is not recing, but is is high performance driving. I think it's a stretch, but as such, it could be considered "racing" just not under the strict definition of ranked automotive competition.

Either way, an HPDE event should not BREAK the clutch unless you're a hamfist and slam every upshift, or don't bother rev matching any downshifts. Even then, it's plausible but not probable. Part of the track experience is to learn how to be smooooooth... If this was at a drag strip, then it's within the realm of expected failures, but certainly not a track event.

All things considered, if his engine and drivetrain is fully stock, I believe the dealer should provide a replacement. If it's modified, or if the OP is a hamfist, I think it's on the OP. At least the clutch in this car seems like a simple job.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Except in the warranty does not provide an all-inclusive list of what is considered misuse, it merely uses "racing" as an example. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch for the manufacturer to say that the exact same behavior as racing, with the exception of being a timed event for points, would also fall under the category of misuse.

It also lists "overloading" as an example. Since this car's power level is well matched to the clutch, it would only be overloaded as a result of poor technique. Since he was going to a borderline-racing track day whose stated purpose is driver education, then it follows that his clutch technique might not have been the greatest and that's why he needed education.

I can see why the dealer, or the manufacturer, would be inclined to deny the warranty. If my clutch shit the bed right now, at 10K miles, with only daily driving and no track days, HDPE, or autocross, then it would be more difficult for them to get out of it.

I am 100% in agreement with you and I honestly don't think the world is an injust place if the OP has to replace the clutch on his own even if it is a manufacturer defect, it's the nature of any performance vehicle.

For OP's and others reference here's a link to the other failed clutches I can find, one with zero autox/hpde.
Page 3 is where it gets interesting:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=51754&page=3

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...33&postcount=5

[sluflyer06]

I probably drove it no harder than anyone else on this forum getting on an on or off ramp.

If that's is true then there would be no need for upgraded pads.

Also see your own signature and the accompanying description of your car.

[stugray]

Not only is HPDE NOT RACING, but some insurance companies still cover you when participating as long as it is not a timed event.

For a while Insurance companies even encouraged it as it made you a better driver.

A clutch replacement is not that expensive (less than a set of racing tires & brakes) if you do it yourself.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Here's a link to the other failed clutches I can find, one with zero autox/hpde.

Oh, I'm not saying it couldn't happen. Manufacturer defects are always possible. I just think that given track usage and the vagueness of the warranty wording, the dealer has a reasonable leg to stand on for them to deny coverage.

Originally Posted by stugray

Not only is HPDE NOT RACING, but some insurance companies still cover you when participating as long as it is not a timed event.

It doesn't matter if it's racing. The warranty provided racing as an example of misuse, not a hard rule of what they defined as misuse. I haven't seen a definitive list of what Subaru or Toyota considers vehicle misuse. They could say that HDPE is misuse because it's still pushing your car hard around a track, even though it isn't for points or time. And just because insurance might cover it doesn't mean the warranty will.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by stugray

Not only is HPDE NOT RACING, but some insurance companies still cover you when participating as long as it is not a timed event.

For a while Insurance companies even encouraged it as it made you a better driver.

A clutch replacement is not that expensive (less than a set of racing tires & brakes) if you do it yourself.

Agreed. I checked with my insurance company before going to a track event.
I was told that as long as it's not "wheel to wheel" racing I was covered.
Several other car owners that were present also told me the same. I was surprised as hell to hear this..

[stugray]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

They could say that HDPE is misuse because it's still pushing your car hard around a track, even though it isn't for points or time.

Using that arguement they could deny you warranty coverage "for pushing your car hard" through the canyons while commuting to work.

Then they could define "hard" as anything over 5k RPM.

So they think they can deny you coverage for going to a "performance driving event/education" with what they call themselves a "high performance automobile"?

That sounds like they are saying - "Dont you dare get any training on how to drive our car in the way that we intended it, or else"

Originally Posted by gramicci101

And just because insurance might cover it doesn't mean the warranty will.

WHY do you suppose the insurance companies warrant that type of activity? Because they were challenged on it and it IS considered "normal use" to get education in how to drive your car. In fact I have heard of people who get traffic tickets TOLD to take a Driver's Education Course hich includes hands on training in your vehicle.
Can the company refuse warranty work if the car breaks while at a "Driver's education course" just because they teach you how to recover from loss of control when hydroplaning?

[mav1178]

Whenever I see threads like this, I understand and appreciate the importance of a good customer/dealer relationship.

A lot of these "issues" stem from unrealistic customer expectations of warranty coverage, or miscommunication between customer and warranty provider (Subaru of America).

Frankly, if you are "fighting" the dealer, something is amiss from the above two points.

-alex

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by stugray

So they think they can deny you coverage for going to a "performance driving event/education" with what they call themselves a "high performance automobile"?

That's exactly what Subaru did when the WRX came out, and again when the STi came out. A lot of people fight it and some of them get good results, but a lot of people roll over because they don't know the law or don't have the money to fight it.

They could define misuse as any redline or overrev event; and I think they do for a type 2 overrev. The point is that it's their prerogative to define misuse as the manufacturer, not ours as the users. If they say that driving it hard in a track environment is misuse of the vehicle, then it is, unless you have the money and the lawyers to challenge them and win. If you keep it below redline and never take it off road (tracks being off road), then they'd have to work a lot harder to say it's misuse.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

The point is that it's their prerogative to define misuse as the manufacturer, not ours as the users. If they say that driving it hard in a track environment is misuse of the vehicle, then it is, unless you have the money and the lawyers to challenge them and win. If you keep it below redline and never take it off road (tracks being off road), then they'd have to work a lot harder to say it's misuse.

Ah the fun part, back when DI seals first became an issue CSG went all out pulling the advertising material Subaru put out, I'd say a HPDE is well within normal operation parameters according to the OEM for this car, toss in some Scion Ken Gushi action in totally stock examples and I think it would be a relatively short case.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37810

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Ah the fun part, back when DI seals first became an issue CSG went all out pulling the advertising material Subaru put out, I'd say a HPDE is well within normal operation parameters according to the OEM for this car, toss in some Scion Ken Gushi action in totally stock examples and I think it would be a relatively short case.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37810

I read that, it's crazy. I definitely understand both sides of the argument, but it's hard for a manufacturer to look at a car with new design and technology, and a heavily-tracked car at that, and make the leap from "you broke it" to "it's a manufacturer defect, let us devote significant amounts of time and money into developing a fix for it." It was only when it started cropping up in cars that had never seen track time that they started taking it seriously.

And a relatively short case is still much much longer and more expensive than no case at all. If they can tell you that it's denied because you tracked it and you accept that, then that's money they didn't have to spend.

But I agree; all the brochures and commercials and Ken Gushi sliding around in promotional vids made it a lot harder to say "this isn't proper usage."

[Mr 286]

We keep talking about overloading the clutch/engine etc ... I thought overloading referred to the amount of carrying load capacity as in how much weight you put in the car.


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