Toyota rules out GT 86 hybrid due to projected lack of demand

[gymratter]

just encase Vides990 missed it or thinks im making up stuff...

Final 2013 Sales Numbers Success: FR-S (18,327) BRZ (8,587)

Posted by admin

The final 2013 sales figures are in for the 86 twins and they were a success by any traditional measurement.

The FR-S sold 18,327 units while the BRZ sold 8,587 units, for a total of 26,914 sold.
Compare this to the first full year sales of rivals cars – the 370Z sold 13,117 units in 2009 and the MX-5 Miata sold 16,897 units in 2006.

See INSIDE for the full 2013 sales breakdown.

http://www.ft86club.com/?p=3063

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

They have already sold.more Frs/brz/gt86 in 1.5 years than Honda did with the S2000 in 9,years.
Don't think there is a problem with sales for a niche market car

They have a great chassis, give it.the.power it needs and they will have the premium buyers as well coming in.

Correct, globally Honda only sold 66,547 units.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by gymratter

Ok, you were the one that said the Lexus line didn't make money.

I never said such a thing

Actually, you did.

Originally Posted by gymratter

you do know that whole Lexus line doesn't really make any money for Toyota

Post #53.

Either way, I'm not going to involve myself deeper into a round of childish mudslinging. I'm done here too.

[gymratter]

Its also funny how Vides990 and jjaisli didnt rebuttal any of the real points that were made. especially, why would Toyota make niche products like the LC, RCF, GSF which will have a super low production rate, but somehow they will not make a 2nd gen 86 which will selling in MUCH MUCH LARGER NUMBERS.

but they are nitpicking about my Lexus comment lol.

[vh_supra26]

Development of a Toyota GT86 hybrid had been well under way, but the suits have decided there isn’t a market to justify production. Are they right that a hybrid sports car flounder in the market or did Toyota just make a big mistake?

It seems like a natural fit to me, especially given Toyota’s dominance of the hybrid market. If anybody could make a fun and affordable hybrid sports car, it should be Toyota, right? It isn’t like this was just an idea on paper either, as development on a GT86 hybrid was said to be “quite advanced” and engineers seemed excited about the prospect of a balanced, sporty and efficient coupe.

Unfortunately, AutoCar reports that executives don’t think the market and business case for such a car can be made, mostly due to cost. A hybrid drivetrain that delivers better performance than the 2.0 liter Boxer engine might just be too expensive compared to the simpler solution of swapping a turbocharged four-banger under the hood. Because the Toyota GT86 and its American cousin, the Scion FR-S, are niche products with low sales volume that is unlikely to repay development and production costs. Let’s not forget the Toyota FT-1 Concept either, which has been pegged as a hybrid Supra successor with a much higher price than the GT86.

It’s a damn shame Toyota backed away from this project, though I can’t say I blame them either. The market might not be ready for a hybrid sports car to compete with the likes of the Mazda Miata. Eventually though some automaker somewhere is going to push a hybrid sports car concept into production, and hopefully create a market that didn’t exist just a few years ago.

Oh wait, somebody already did, and it’s called the Volkswagen Golf GT-E.

So what do you think; is Toyota making a huge mistake here, or is the business case for a GT86 hybrid just not there?

http://gas2.org/2014/06/10/market-toyota-gt86-hybrid/

[vh_supra26]

Anyways, getting back on topic. According to the current poll Toyota is right. There is a too small of market for a hybrid 86/FR-S.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Good. Let there be turbo!

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

They have a great chassis, give it.the.power it needs and they will have the premium buyers as well coming in.

Disagree. The car already has the power it NEEDS. It just does not have the power that you and some other outspoken owners and reviewers WANT.

Do you really think that simply adding FI and $8K(*) to the price will bring in premium buyers? I don't. To bring in premium buyers you will have to also add features and refinement such as better connectivity, sound insulation, etc. which translate to more weight. That will change the whole nature of the car to something more akin to the 370Z which, as pointed out, does not sell well. More power does not equal more sales. If it did, then then the s2000 would still be around instead of the Miata (MX5).

If they were to put a turbo or supercharger on the car then sales of those so equipped models would most likely be a small percentage of the sales of the total model line. I believe Toyota knows this.

Alright, I will step away from the dead horse now. He has had enough.


*Footnote: I arrived at the $8K price hike based on Subaru's price stepping between the base Impreza and the WRX and the WRX and the STI models.

[Dake]

I still can't envision how they could make the 86 platform a hybrid without changing so much about it that it would be a completely different car. It's not like there's room for the existing motor plus a hybrid motor, so that means losing the boxer for something else. That also means adding more weight which means completely (and negatively) changing all the dynamics of the vehicle.

I do think they're better off developing something new vs trying to finagle a hybrid out of the 86. If it was done right, I'd probably consider it - I just don't think it could be done right.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Rampage

Disagree. The car already has the power it NEEDS. It just does not have the power that you and some other outspoken owners and reviewers WANT.

Do you really think that simply adding FI and $8K(*) to the price will bring in premium buyers? I don't. To bring in premium buyers you will have to also add features and refinement such as better connectivity, sound insulation, etc. which translate to more weight. That will change the whole nature of the car to something more akin to the 370Z which, as pointed out, does not sell well. More power does not equal more sales. If it did, then then the s2000 would still be around instead of the Miata (MX5).

If they were to put a turbo or supercharger on the car then sales of those so equipped models would most likely be a small percentage of the sales of the total model line. I believe Toyota knows this.

Alright, I will step away from the dead horse now. He has had enough.


*Footnote: I arrived at the $8K price hike based on Subaru's price stepping between the base Impreza and the WRX and the WRX and the STI models.

If what you said had any truth no one would buy the WRX STI.
And we all know there has been and always will be a market for that car despite it being niche.

The S2000 was never designed to have a life cycle past 4-5 years as they expected ultra low volume sales. It was a purpose built car internally to celebrate Honda's race culture and also a swansong/retirement project for their older engineers.

The 86 is not a practical hatchback/sedan like the Impreza, it becomes a no brainer to offer a high performance version of it since it's become one of the biggest tuner cars in the past 10 years.

[B3yondL]

It'll obviously get a power upgrade sooner or later. Honda and Nissan might look to eye this market as it has been proven successful and to stay ahead of the competition Toyabaru will obviously freshen the car up.

I'm actually glad it won't come in the form of hybrid power, at least we know it'll come in either a larger displacement or turbo which is a-okay by me.

[vh_supra26]

Thanks for getting this thread back on topic guys.

[SCharged]

Looking at the twins' weaknesses, I don't think a higher power model would be viable. With the quality of the interior and absence of a lot of recently broadly adopted creature comforts in lower line cars, I don't think many people would pay over $30K for a turbo model. THe WRX/STi sell relatively well because they offer good power AND are convenient/comfortable. There is no way twins are convenient and/or comfortable for daily use.... they're not a 2 seater with no tunck, but they still are not convenient by most people's standards. If you take a brz, add a turbo, and awd, and two doors, and, and, and... you end up with a wrx/sti.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by SCharged

Looking at the twins' weaknesses, I don't think a higher power model would be viable. With the quality of the interior and absence of a lot of recently broadly adopted creature comforts in lower line cars, I don't think many people would pay over $30K for a turbo model. THe WRX/STi sell relatively well because they offer good power AND are convenient/comfortable. There is no way twins are convenient and/or comfortable for daily use.... they're not a 2 seater with no tunck, but they still are not convenient by most people's standards. If you take a brz, add a turbo, and awd, and two doors, and, and, and... you end up with a wrx/sti.

Pass on the AWD and 2 extra doors. Bring on the turbo though.