Can you name any FWD sports cars?

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

Hah, oh look, another thread on "my car is superior because the rear wheels drive the car when in actual every-day usage that doesn't matter an ounce."

Also the Campagna T-Rex and V13R are not considered cars. The company states they are three wheel motorcycles.

Also here, ya go. Sports car intended for motorsports.

i think hes mad cuz he drives a Camry lol

im just messing with you :p

the people that brought the 3 wheeler in this thread said "3 wheeler". they never said if it was a 3 wheeler car or bike

[SnapOv3st3r]

Originally Posted by Atropine

I can kinda agree and disagree with this.

My STi was stupidly fast, but I never liked how it felt. But like I said...around a track or in AutoX it was stupidly fast.

My first AW-11 was slow...but a blast to drive.

My N/A Miata IS slow, but I love that little car. I have not tracked it (and won't because of the whole convertible aspect). May AutoX it eventually.

To me there is more than speed...its more about feel.

I have driven/owned a LOT of cars faster than the BRZ...yet it just feels great.

I love the feel of the FR-S even though my tC is faster. I didn't say that was my only requirement

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by paulca

You mean when driving it down to the mall (supermarket) it doesn't make a bit of difference.

This is my first RWD car and I could tell within a few miles there was a shit load of difference where it counted when your barreling down a twistie little country back road.

Ever consider that maybe one or more of the hundreds of differences between the frs and your last car that contribute to the cars being, well, different?

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by paulca

You mean when driving it down to the mall (supermarket) it doesn't make a bit of difference.

This is my first RWD car and I could tell within a few miles there was a shit load of difference where it counted when your barreling down a twistie little country back road.

Different, yeah. But that's it, different. Not better one way or another, which is generally what these threads aim to do. "My car is better because it's RWD" and then it becomes a big circlejerk of self-justification.

Every car is different though. The twins are different than the Mustang, but both are RWD. You can definitely tell within a few blocks that they're way different.

Originally Posted by gymratter

i think hes mad cuz he drives a Camry lol

im just messing with you :p

the people that brought the 3 wheeler in this thread said "3 wheeler". they never said if it was a 3 wheeler car or bike

I wouldn't drive the Camry if the infant carrier fit in the back of the Abarth.

re: 3 wheelers, I was responding to the picture. Thread title references sports cars so I had to point out. Semantics and whatnot. Hmm, I wonder if Morgan classifiers theirs as a car or a trike..

[paulca]

Its fairly obvious why RWD is better.

The front wheels do the steering and most of the braking. So asking them to steer as well physically, as a mater of fact, gives you less grip.

RWD shares the grip load under acceleration. Leaving the front wheels to just steer and lets face it, steering is quite important.

FWD was only invented as a cost saving measure to save on drive shafts and separate diffs et al. It was then sold as a "safety" feature (more weight on driven wheels). I remember the ads on TV for the first ones.

[King Tut]

A BRZ in reverse?

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

re: 3 wheelers, I was responding to the picture. Thread title references sports cars so I had to point out. Semantics and whatnot. Hmm, I wonder if Morgan classifiers theirs as a car or a trike..

Three wheelers register as motorcycles. But other than that, I have nothing useful to add to this thread.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by paulca

Its fairly obvious why RWD is better.

The front wheels do the steering and most of the braking. So asking them to steer as well physically, as a mater of fact, gives you less grip.

RWD shares the grip load under acceleration. Leaving the front wheels to just steer and lets face it, steering is quite important.

FWD was only invented as a cost saving measure to save on drive shafts and separate diffs et al. It was then sold as a "safety" feature (more weight on driven wheels). I remember the ads on TV for the first ones.

Thank you captain obvious. If the technology existed for a good FWD or AWD design at the time the horseless carriage was invented, things may have been different because before we had cars for sport we had cars for function.

However what is "Better" is irrelevant in this discussion as it carries a logical hole that's so big it has its own gravity. Should all RWD sports cars no longer be considered sports cars because AWD is superior? Of course not.

The physics of a RWD platform vs a FWD doesn't negate a FWD sports car from being considered as such any more than the existence of AWD negates a RWD car from being considered a sports car.

Growing up I remember hearing:
"Real sports cars are air cooled" - Well that's bullshit
"real sports cars have 3 pedals" - That's quickly becoming bullshit
"real sports cars are RWD" - Except that these fools changed their tune when AWD became big and now their elitism has evolved to:
"real sports cars are RWD or AWD".. How fucking convenient of them!!

All this thread does is expose the prevalence of little minds.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by paulca

Its fairly obvious why RWD is better.

The front wheels do the steering and most of the braking. So asking them to steer as well physically, as a mater of fact, gives you less grip.

RWD shares the grip load under acceleration. Leaving the front wheels to just steer and lets face it, steering is quite important.

FWD was only invented as a cost saving measure to save on drive shafts and separate diffs et al. It was then sold as a "safety" feature (more weight on driven wheels). I remember the ads on TV for the first ones.

Well, AWD is better, but ignoring that...

There's a lot of factors in designing a car, especially a sports car, and especially a budget sports car. Especially given the relatively low hp you can have in an affordable car, you have to consider what the opportunity cost of things are. So you have to consider if the added weight and complexity and cost of a rwd is worth it, or if that money is better spent on making a better fwd car. I believe that's why honda went with the ITR and civic r in the 90's, because they thought it would make for a better sports car for the cost.

And maybe there is merit to that since similarly priced mazdaspeed 3 and focus st are faster than a brz at the track...

[paulca]

AWD suffers weight and complexity issues. Besides AWD is really for low traction surfaces. If it wasn't why do they not make purpose build race cars AWD?

[totopo]

Originally Posted by stugray

A "Sports Car" is intended to be for participation in motorsports.

Ask yourself this question: "Would anyone knowledgeable in automotive engineering ever START with FWD if 'racing' was the intent?"

I say - No.
It's that simple. If the car has FWD, then the primary design criteria was NOT for "participation in motorosports"

And if you want a real sports car, then it is mid-engine RWD :-)

So, how much do you know about automotive engineering and motorsports? The specifics of the platform layout for motorsports is highly determined by the regulations, your development costs, and what you have handy. FWD cars are actually competitive in a wide variety of motorsports.

Take a look at these results for last year's 25 hours of thunderhill as an example: http://timingscoring.drivenasa.com/N...s_Official.pdf

There are plenty of groups where FF cars are very competitive or top of the class. FF cars can be super light weight, which helps a lot in the really weight sensitive classes. They are popular in a lot of the time trial groups as well... usually because they start out with so few points.

So... remind me again why the civic R isn't a sports car?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5v...s-vs-civi_auto

Somehow i feel like the most vocal proponents of the "FF are trash" crowd are the ones that have never actually gone to the track. Those DC2 ITRs are not to be scoffed at.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by paulca

AWD suffers weight and complexity issues. Besides AWD is really for low traction surfaces. If it wasn't why do they not make purpose build race cars AWD?

usually banned or high point penalty. If you look at the high hp groups where they are legal, like the super expensive world time attack cars, they are all high hp awd. f1 would probably be awd (or maybe even 6-wheel drive) by now if it wasn't all banned.

For the low hp, the weight isn't worth the advantage. The hp limit has been changing though, mostly because of tire technology explosion over the last 20 years. In the 90's, it was hard to keep 300hp down on 2 sport tires, where now 500hp is not that unmanageable. The world time attack cars are more like 800-1000hp

[Purdue FR-S]

[stugray]

Originally Posted by totopo

So, how much do you know about automotive engineering and motorsports?..

My family builds & owns racecars, specializing in boxer engines. I am part of a pit crew, and I am an engineer.

Originally Posted by totopt

Somehow i feel like the most vocal proponents of the "FF are trash" crowd are the ones that have never actually gone to the track. .

I never said anything bad about "FF" or said they are bad. I traded in my Supra for a Solara - WHY? because I commute in snow.
FF has it's advantages. Being the fastest around any given track is not one of them.

As I stated before: I participate in club road racing. Each race weekend there are a couple hundred cars participating.
Over the entire race weekend, how many FF cars are participating? ZERO.

I merely stated what the globally accpeted definition of "Sports Car" was. No need to argue with it.

Sports ....... Car = Car for participating in "Sports" aka MotorSports.

And as I said (can hardly be debated) IF an engineer starts out to make the fastest most competitive CAR possible, they do NOT start with FWD.

Using YOUR arguement, just because someone out there "races" lawnmowers, that means lawnmowers should be called a "Sports car"
People in wheelchairs can play basketball too.
If you wanted to start a pro basketball team would your first choice be people in wheelchairs?