Lets learn to drive manual! Save my clutch Season 1

[SirBrass]

You ride it smoothly, not necessarily longer. It'll take longer at first, but as you get smoother you'll get faster.

Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.

On phone I am. Therefore, if mistakes I make, Frank Oz blame you should.

[bpmorgan7]

Drove my friends brz that he has had for a year, much easier to drive than my new one, this car definitely needs some breaking in in the beginning.

[RacerX]

Originally Posted by kalamitykode

One thing I guess I don't get (as a new manual driver) is how people take off so fast lol. I can go from a stop to first fairly smoothly but I can never get to second quickly enough. I always end up at 5k rpms with a whole lotta noise and a jerk backwards. I'm getting better and better at upshifting, but 50% of the time when I go from first to second there's a jerk. Second to third is better, and fourth to fifth or fifth to sixth is no problem.

Don't shift into 2nd at 5k. Do it around 2.5k. You don't want to go any faster than 10-12mph in 1st. There is no need.

[kalamitykode]

Originally Posted by RacerX

Don't shift into 2nd at 5k. Do it around 2.5k. You don't want to go any faster than 10-12mph in 1st. There is no need.

The problem is that even if I shift at 8-10mph it still feels like it takes ages to get into 2nd. And there's always a jerk, no matter how much I practice. I've tried at different rpm ranges, different speeds, no luck. With my automatic Mazda 3 I was easily able to pull into traffic and go without cutting anyone off.. But in this car I have to make sure I have plenty of time.

[aristo]

Originally Posted by kalamitykode

The problem is that even if I shift at 8-10mph it still feels like it takes ages to get into 2nd. And there's always a jerk, no matter how much I practice. I've tried at different rpm ranges, different speeds, no luck. With my automatic Mazda 3 I was easily able to pull into traffic and go without cutting anyone off.. But in this car I have to make sure I have plenty of time.

Yes yes this. I know exactly what you're talking about

It feels like if I want to merge quickly in to fast traffic without slowing anyone down, the whole shifting process has to be very dramatic and action packed (everything feels rushed and the car seems to have to stress)

Maybe more time and experience will be the only real answer

Also the sure-fire way to not have a jerk motion I find is to stay at the engagement point towards the end of the clutch just a little bit longer before letting go completely - like .5 second

[stugray]

Originally Posted by aristo

Also the sure-fire way to not have a jerk motion I find is to stay at the engagement point towards the end of the clutch just a little bit longer before letting go completely - like .5 second

Originally Posted by kalamitykode

And there's always a jerk, no matter how much I practice. I've tried at different rpm ranges, different speeds, no luck.

Aristo & Kalamity,

When shifting from 1st to 2nd, you need to let the clutch slip a little.
Learn to play a little more right at the clutch engagement point.

If the car jerks adruptly, then you are either not close to the correct revs or you are just letting the clutch out too quickly.
I tell people I am teaching "A clutch is more like a volume knob, than a switch. It's not just on or off".

And something you can try to help develop rev matches:
( I will probably get flamed for this) -
Try shifting without the clutch at all (Disclaimer - DONT do it a lot).
You CAN up & down shift this car just fine without using the clutch, but you have to rev match exactly.
It IS harder on the synchros if you are not perfect.

If you can do it then you are properly rev matching.
You will likely grind a couple of times, but if you are not trying to force it into gear like a gorilla, then it is not as bad as it sounds/feels.

[swpbrz]

Originally Posted by Zeus

Bumping this thread because it's awesome. Who's ready for 20 questions lol.

A few thoughts first:

Third week with the car, my first manual. Finally getting the hang of smooth starts after getting stuck in traffic and literally bucking the car every time I had to come to a complete stop. Learned I had to tell myself to stop thinking about "letting the clutch out" but instead "keep pressing down on the clutch, just less" and keep the spring pressure against my foot all the way up. This clutch is high! No idea how you guys work it with you heel on the ground.

I can't upshift to second for shit. Can't downshift into it either for that matter.

On to the questions:

When I start from a stop I'm obviously feathering the throttle as I let off the clutch into first. Do you do the same thing upshifting to higher gears? Or is it a more defined clutch-shift-clutch-gas?

My downshifts are quite jerky. Are you required to rev match into every gear to get them smooth? Or do you just need to let the clutch out slowly or time rpms better or something? I've actually gotten decent a rev matching down to third as I'm coming up to a stoplight, it seem pretty forgiving and I just give it a good blip and it slides right in. The rest of them not so much and I'm wondering if it's even necessary.

Turning:
Let say you're coming up to a green light to make a left moving at a good clip. You've got time to make the turn but there some oncoming traffic and you can't dawdle:

Do you brake and finish coasting the turn in the higher gear, then try to downshift after making the turn?

Or, do you try to downshift before braking, then brake, take the turn, and accelerate in gear?

I'm not sure if I can brake and downshift at the same time because I can't blip the throttle...but I like the idea of already being in the correct gear as I leave the turn so I can accelerate right away!

Thanks guys

I'd just say it's goods while your learning to try and analyze everything this much. .. But once your done learning part of the fun with a manual is the jazz aspect of it.

You can take that turn however you like in the way that best flows with your driving style at that moment. There is no right way. Just mind your not aggressive on the clutch or grinding gears to much.

The fun though is the improvisation

[aristo]

Very appreciative to all the folks who bother helping us newbs lol. I wish there was a 'new drivers sub-section' in this forum so we don't clutter things up

While this thread is still bumped high and some knowledgeable drivers seem to read it..more questions!

I've read that being in a high gear and too low of a speed is not 'bad' for the engine but just bad for gas efficiency is this true?

I bring this up because the people who taught me say to simply throw the car in to 2nd gear while moving slowly instead of downshifting to 1st (why do people not like downshifting in to 1st? I feel it makes so much sense to in many situations)

But when moving too slowly in a presumably (higher) gear - the whole car feels like its choking or stuttering.. This can't be a good thing can it? Or is that a normal reaction? This is also accompanied by a 'rattle' type sound

Another example would be moving around in 3rd gear at say 10 mph - the car will kind of 'complain' but is any mechanical damage occurring or will it just eat more gas to compensate?

[SirBrass]

Lugging the engine is terrible on gas efficiency & not good for the engine long term if often done. Occasionally it just hurts mileage. Bad habit to use anyway.

That speed is the "too low for the gear" speed. If it's not so low that you don't lug the engine, then from an engine health perspective it's not bad.

On phone I am. Therefore, if mistakes I make, Frank Oz blame you should.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by stugray

And something you can try to help develop rev matches:
( I will probably get flamed for this) -
Try shifting without the clutch at all (Disclaimer - DONT do it a lot).
You CAN up & down shift this car just fine without using the clutch, but you have to rev match exactly.

For the people who are learning to drive a stick, please don't do that. Learn to walk before you run. Learn to drive a stick before you trash your synchros attempting clutchless shifting. Just because it is possible to shift with using the clutch doesn't mean you should do it, especially if you're having trouble just getting from first to second smoothly.

It boggles my mind that someone would suggest this to newbies complaining that they're having trouble shifting smoothly with the clutch.

Originally Posted by kalamitykode

The problem is that even if I shift at 8-10mph it still feels like it takes ages to get into 2nd. And there's always a jerk, no matter how much I practice. I've tried at different rpm ranges, different speeds, no luck.

You are probably doing one of three things:

1. If you are tossed forward a little when the clutch catches, you may be overthinking it and taking too long to shift. You should not have to actively match revs when shifting up from first to second. You should 1)let off the gas and engage the clutch pedal simultaneously, 2)move the shifter into second gear and 3)let off the clutch pedal while simultaneously giving it some gas. If you do this quickly (and smoothly) enough, the RPM should drop just enough during step 2 that the engine speed and the speed of the drivetrain are pretty close to matching. If you do it too slowly, the engine RPM will have dropped too low, and the slower turning engine will try to slow down the car with an uncomfortable clunk.

If this is your problem, get to a large parking lot and just practice trying to shift smoothly and quickly from first to second under a weak to normal acceleration. The emphasis is on a quick movement that is smooth and relaxed. Don't white knuckle the shift knob, and don't slam it into gear. Also don't feel as though you have to be driving fast to do a quick, smooth shift. On some of these practice runs, just try shifting into second and letting it coast in gear, without giving it gas. Doing that will help you get a feel for the best time to shift.

2. If you feel a kick in your seat as the car tries to jerk forward out from under you, you may be revving the engine too much or too early coming out of the shift, so that the engine is turning over faster than the transmission shaft. This car will actually bark the tires going into second gear if you give it too much throttle.

The remedy is similar to #1. Go to a large parking lot and practice, especially shifting smoothly and quickly into second and letting it coast. Once you can do that smoothly, start adding more throttle until you get a good feel for how quickly to get back onto the accelerator without giving your passenger whiplash.

3. If you are jerked forward and back (ka-chunk-ka-chunk) and/or feel the engine lugging (bogging down) on the shift, you may be trying to shift out of first too soon, before you have enough speed to really be comfortably in second gear. This one's easy. Just let it wind out a little more before shifting.

It's possible you have a combination of the above problems. Just go practice and figure it out. Master your timing in a parking lot (or quiet neighborhood or deserted industrial park on Sunday afternoon) when there's not any traffic to worry about. You learn a lot from the pressure of being in traffic, but there's something to be said for getting rid of the distractions to be able to focus on the basics.

Originally Posted by aristo

(why do people not like downshifting in to 1st? I feel it makes so much sense to in many situations)

Let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. This car has a synchronized first gear, so you can certainly shift into first while the car is moving. On the other hand, I usually avoid engine braking in first because first gear in this car is geared so low that you have to be going pretty slow already not to kick the engine revs up a lot higher than is ideal. If you downshift into first while the car is moving at any appreciable speed, you can find your nose flattened against the steering wheel. But if you're just easing up to a stop light, there's no reason you can't shift into first. I usually don't, because by the time I'm going slow enough to shift into first, there's really no point.

By the way, some of us learned to drive on older cars, some of which did not have synchronized first gears. One of the cars I learned in was an MG Midget. First gear in a Midget is not synchronized, meaning that you must be completely stopped to put it into gear, just like with reverse on other cars. If you tried to shift into first with the car moving, the gear would grind, even with the clutch pedal all the way to the floor. Between learning on a car with a non-synchronized first gear and the fact that first gear is usually geared pretty low, I rarely shift into first before stopping.

[aristo]

@extrashaky

Thanks for the input I really appreciate it

However, when I mentioned downshifting in to first gear - I meant crawling around maybe 5mph and continuing on (not coming to a stop*)

The scenario would be a sudden slow down in traffic lets say and I was in 5th gear and slow down all the way to around 4-5 mph

Some say in this situation, one should shift down to 2nd gear and not 1st but it feels like the car is 'struggling' in 2nd gear when going at such a pace

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by aristo

However, when I mentioned downshifting in to first gear - I meant crawling around maybe 5mph and continuing on (not coming to a stop*)

There is no problem with shifting into first under those circumstances, and in fact you do not want to lug the engine in 2nd when going that slow. I end up shifting into first in stop-and-go traffic. I think when you see people suggesting not to downshift into first, they're really thinking of engine braking coming up to a complete stop. That's why I thought it was important to clarify.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

It boggles my mind that someone would suggest this to newbies complaining that they're having trouble shifting smoothly with the clutch..

When I was teaching my son to drive stick in the BRZ, I demonstrated the concept of rev matching.
I told him:
"when I tell you, up shift to 3rd without the clutch. Out of 2nd pause as the RPMs drop 1500, then ease it into 3rd."

He acted surprised when it worked on the very first try, no grinding.
Yeah.... really difficult. Better save it for the experts.

I was merely explaining it because just knowing it can be done gives them more understanding how the system works.
He understood rev matching and shifted much better after that.
Most experienced drivers dont even realize that during some shifts they are not completely disengaging the clutch because the shift is so smooth.

Dont try it when attempting a 0-60 best time however...

[eighty666]

try holding it at a steady speed for 1-2 seconds then shift into second. just practice driving you will eventually be smooth