Who is happy the engine will be Naturally Aspirated?

[madfast]

Originally Posted by jonnyozero3

Look guys (and gals),

Most of the folks here love the chassis, love the car. Some folks like it just how it is and what it represents for performance per dollar, and for sheer (expected) fun factor on twisty roads.

What I don't get is why most seem to assume that if a forum member wants more power, that makes them a street racing douchetard in the eyes of 90% this forum.

So, to blatantly generalize and summarize:

1) The car is by all reports amazing in the handling department on moderate-grip tires.
2) The car is only "moderately" quick in a straight line.
3) Anyone highlighting this and asking for better is burnt at the stake.

For all those claiming to not care about bench-racing, schoolteacher racing, etc, how much time have you spent on a track? Have you ever exceeded the capabilities of a vehicle?

Some people have.

Some people can carve corners like nobody's business, hit the apex and hamer out of a turn smoother than your little sister's ass.

Yet, if their car doesn't have the balls, they are never going to reel in that 370Z, M3, or Boxster ahead of them. But they want to.

Is that wrong? I would argue no. It's not a knock on the AS1, it's actually a rousing endorsement that persons who desire (and will pay) for extra power-to-weight ratio and grip want it in this chassis. The car looks great, it handles great. Subaru and Toyota just need to engineer in enough "oomph" to put the heat on some of the bigger players one or two segments above the current model.

So what? I'm just saying, stop all the immature hating. The chassis is by all reports amazing. If I will plop down $33k for this chassis with 0-60 in 4.5 seconds so I can tear some rich pricks up on the track, why not encourage it? A halo/hi-po model of the AS1 can be nothing but a good thing.

This is a case where we can have our cake and eat it too. Or whatever stupid damn metaphor you want. Bottom line: no reason we all can't be happy with $26k 200hp BRZs *and* $33k 280hp BRZs.

//rant

the problem is that the car was designed FROM THE BEGINNING to be RWD, light, and CHEAP (relatively). having said that, people who say the car "needs" more power just dont get it. the faster you make it, the heavier it gets, and the more expensive. you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[mrtodd]

Originally Posted by JIMs|a|MILLION

there needs to be a big banner at the top of the main forum page stating that both Toyota and Subaru have made it clear that any engine power gains are going to be strictly aftermarket. Which was the true intention of this project. ...allowing the tuning community of yester-years to be revived and active again.

footnotes: everyone whining about wanting factory supplied engine upgrades is the very reason why we don't have Best-Motoring any more. /thread

AshWilliams. Pay heed to this quote and my previous statement. THIS IS A TUNER'S CAR. If you're not satisfied with the engine performance, then build it the way YOU want it. In my opinion, Toyota and Subaru got this car EXACTLY right. We are paying for the perfect chassis - ultra light weight with handling of the gods. The engine is an excellent platform to modify. Why do you keep ignoring this fact? It's been stated several times throughout this thread.

[Tbomb 25]

It does seem like people on here get really angry when other posters say it needs more power,and thats rediculous.....because if this car came with the WRX motor all you that claim this current power level is fine and so perfect for a 2800+ pound car,would be much happier even if all you "so called" NA purists wouldnt admit it. The truth is this car does need more power but in particular the "torque" department i see all these S2000 and Rx8 comparrisons...and that is way off atleast in the motor department. those engines are 8500+ rpm rev monsters!

This engine is not a high reving terror...its rather mudane in that aspect.I just dont see the logic,if Toyota wanted a NA Boxter motor Subaru should not have been their choice its easy it should have been Porsche.Toyota basically tied Subarus righthand behind their back on this project,by not letting them do what they do best...which is turbochaged boxer engines.Its a shame people are not really looking at how disapointing this engine really is,without DI this motor would have only made about 150 to the crank and thats being really genorous and it even needed 12.5.1 compression only to run on premium gas at the height of our worst gas crisis in the history of this planet for god sakes Toyota gee thanks, this will not be a tuner friendly motor this car as a whole may be tuners delight but the motor deffinetly isnt. Honda didnt need DI to get 210 at the crank out of the K20,even Toyota themsleves didnt need DI to get 180 to the crank out of Celica GTS motor and they even done it with 1.8 litres.I love this car on so many levels more than 99% of the new cars out there at any pricepoint,but the price for what you get just isnt there on more than a few levels,the mpg,the initial availabilty and crazy mark ups,lack of engine tunability is a major question mark...and all this at the expense of no torque and not being able to REALLY rev....Wow is all i can say...im gonna leave it at that...Im sorry guys not trying to be a hater,im just stating facts....i know you guys rip peoples head off for saying something negative about this so called ungodly car but oh well...this has been on my mind since the engine specs came out...again sorry for this...

[AshWilliams]

Random questions, since I did at one point have a deposit on this car which was since refunded until I can drive one and see if the handling and light weight blow my mind so much I forget about the anemic engine...

Why would I want to void the warranty and install my own turbo when Subaru makes their own turbo engines and happily covers reasonable warranty claims?

If you're going to bolt 5-10 grand of aftermarket crap to it, not all of it performance enhancing like lowered springs, idiotic JDM ground effects, weird wings, lumpy racing seats not sanctioned by any known racing body, TRD door stabilizers, etc, where is the argument for inexpensive when that already drives the price up and doesn't always positively affect performance and 30-35 grand for a turbo model from Subaru suddenly makes a lot more financial sense.

The engine choice is deeply flawed and until Subaru asks Toyota for their balls back and makes a WRX/STi powered version this car won't be a serious contender, unless you want to judge it in a vacuum.

To reiterate, because I may not be clear. I want to love this car, but I already hate the engine.

[Kunzite]

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

And if I want to drive around town, I'll have a hard time keeping up with modern family sedans if their drivers actually want to use that pedal next to the brake because this car is 'barely adequate.'

It seems that in Florida, all family sedans have V8s with 300-400HP or more... which quite explains the oil crisis! :p

Tbomb 25, the WRX engine and the WRX price? Thanks but no, thanks.
This is getting ridiculous. Not every car should be made to your liking.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tbomb 25

It does seem like people on here get really angry when other posters say it needs more power,and thats rediculous...

There are folks on both sides of this fence that get "really angry" at the other side. I'd say welcome to Internet forums. There are also folks here that think its ok to write comments in a language they'd never use in public. Its a shame really.

In terms of the engine debate, I think most folks fall into three categories:

Car needs more power and its useless without it.
Car has just the right amount of power and will never need/have more.
Car has enough power for its intended purpose but what car can't use more and it will eventually have it?

I fall, and I think most here do, into the 3rd. Why? Because this is true for just about any production car. That's why just about every sports/muscle car comes with different power trains.

The 86 will eventually get more power, that's pretty much a given. When it does it will cost more, that's a fact. If it had more power now I don't think anyone would say that was bad. What some would say, and I'd be one, is the cost would be too high. If they offered it in two engine levels, I'd still take this one because I expect it meets my needs at the price point I expect. That's why I own a '05 v6 200hp Mustang and not a GT.

It doesn't make me angry because you think it needs more. Its your opinion and I respect that. But, it is just that, your opinion, as is mine. I reserve my final decision on whether the car has enough power until I actually drive it. Then I may even agree it needs more, and if it does I won't buy it. I recommend everyone do that since 99.9% of us are making a judgment on paper stats.

What gets my knickers in a wad are folks that tell me when some soccer Mom leaves me in the dust at a stoplight because she's driving some overpowered SUV I'll suddenly know they are right. Bottom line is I'll never notice because I really don't care. Your mileage may vary and that's ok but don't tell me a car you've never driven is an epic fail beause the numbers don't make sense to you, or they could added more.

Bottom line, if the car isn't a fit don't buy it or mod/wait until it is. Its all good.

[mrtodd]

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

Why would I want to void the warranty and install my own turbo when Subaru makes their own turbo engines and happily covers reasonable warranty claims?

If you're going to bolt 5-10 grand of aftermarket crap to it, not all of it performance enhancing like lowered springs, idiotic JDM ground effects, weird wings, lumpy racing seats not sanctioned by any known racing body, TRD door stabilizers, etc, where is the argument for inexpensive when that already drives the price up and doesn't always positively affect performance and 30-35 grand for a turbo model from Subaru suddenly makes a lot more financial sense.

The engine choice is deeply flawed and until Subaru asks Toyota for their balls back and makes a WRX/STi powered version this car won't be a serious contender, unless you want to judge it in a vacuum.

To reiterate, because I may not be clear. I want to love this car, but I already hate the engine.

Let's answer your questions one by one. Starting from the top.

First - to make your car different than all the others on the road, all while costing less than the car you mentioned. I couldn't care less about a warranty. I've built plenty of engines for performance reasons, i know what i'm getting into and i know the risks and how to steer clear of them. It sounds like you don't dare to get your hands dirty.

Second - ground effects? ......really? It sounds like you are taking this rather personally. Throwing out infantile attacks like this make me lose respect for your stated opinions. Who says i'm even going to spend 10 grand in modifications? And why are you assuming i just HAVE to reach the coveted performance of the infamous WRX STi? I never compared this to any other car. Looks like you have your own performance insecurities. Leading up to my initial comment you've only complained about lacking engine performance - but now it seems like you're frantically throwing out other claims.. To answer your question, i can spend substantially less than 10 grand to get the engine performance I want out of this car, all while keeping it very reliable.

Third - "the engine choice is deeply flawed".... How so? The more i read your responses the less it seems you've ever had any experience in engine modification/tuning. In my opinion this engine is perfect. 86 mil bore and stroke with a very low center of gravity and direct injection with an extremely high compression ratio right out of the box? This is a tuner's dream for inexpensive performance potential! I've seen smaller, less sophisticated engines make well over 350 hp, reliably, i have no worries about bringing this engine up to par with my performance expectations.

In conclusion, Ash, it sounds to me like you're a kind of person who wants everything from the get go - and there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't forget that you have to pay extra for such luxuries. Ether way, you are talking shit to people on this forum because YOU are not happy with this cars' spec sheet. You obviously have never torn apart any engine on your own, and because of this you cringe at the thought of losing a manufacturer's warranty. All of that being said, here is my official response to you: quit being a bitch and either, A) learn how to work on engines, do your own work, and make a kick ass BRZ that will satisfy your own performance expectations, or B) shut the fuck up and buy another car.

[MtnDrvr86]

Meh...all this about needs more power is what ever till you actually drive the thing. Frankly, 200 will be plenty for me. I drive a car with 130 hp and considerably less torque and do just fine in city and highway driving/passing. 200hp will feel plenty fast for me. Besides, it just means, as I get better, I can add more down the road... to each his own

[Exhaust]

Originally Posted by MtnDrvr86

Meh...all this about needs more power is what ever till you actually drive the thing. Frankly, 200 will be plenty for me. I drive a car with 130 hp and considerably less torque and do just fine in city and highway driving/passing. 200hp will feel plenty fast for me. Besides, it just means, as I get better, I can add more down the road... to each his own

162. Lets race.

All joking aside i'll keep my FRS N/A and track it until i get comfortable and feel like ive perfected it as is stock. Meanwhile ill just save my money and splurge where i see fit, from what ive read SC is the way to go vs Turbo (headache wise) and HKS seems very promising but i'll have to wait to see what becomes available. I wont be buying for another year anyway, so i have plenty of time to wait.

[serialk11r]

I disagree with people who say the car should not have a higher power engine option. It definitely should, it's always better for the consumer and manufacturer if they have more options for different kinds of people.

A higher power version gives the car more prestige (which matters to people who drop this sort of money, don't deny it), more performance, and allows Subaru to compete in the "mid performance coupe" market.

It's not fair to tell AshWilliams that he should just go learn how to tune an engine and bolt on his own mods and build his own engine, but on the other hand, it's ridiculous that AshWilliams is complaining about how Subaru isn't releasing a car that suits his own needs right now. If it makes economic sense, they'll make a more upmarket version with more power, no reason to bitch that it's not arriving on release. The platform was meant to be low cost, a good place to start, and they're testing the waters right now, in a market where sports cars have been selling poorly for the past few years.

[Tbomb 25]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

There are folks on both sides of this fence that get "really angry" at the other side. I'd say welcome to Internet forums. There are also folks here that think its ok to write comments in a language they'd never use in public. Its a shame really.

In terms of the engine debate, I think most folks fall into three categories:

Car needs more power and its useless without it.
Car has just the right amount of power and will never need/have more.
Car has enough power for its intended purpose but what car can't use more and it will eventually have it?

I fall, and I think most here do, into the 3rd. Why? Because this is true for just about any production car. That's why just about every sports/muscle car comes with different power trains.

The 86 will eventually get more power, that's pretty much a given. When it does it will cost more, that's a fact. If it had more power now I don't think anyone would say that was bad. What some would say, and I'd be one, is the cost would be too high. If they offered it in two engine levels, I'd still take this one because I expect it meets my needs at the price point I expect. That's why I own a '05 v6 200hp Mustang and not a GT.

It doesn't make me angry because you think it needs more. Its your opinion and I respect that. But, it is just that, your opinion, as is mine. I reserve my final decision on whether the car has enough power until I actually drive it. Then I may even agree it needs more, and if it does I won't buy it. I recommend everyone do that since 99.9% of us are making a judgment on paper stats.

What gets my knickers in a wad are folks that tell me when some soccer Mom leaves me in the dust at a stoplight because she's driving some overpowered SUV I'll suddenly know they are right. Bottom line is I'll never notice because I really don't care. Your mileage may vary and that's ok but don't tell me a car you've never driven is an epic fail beause the numbers don't make sense to you, or they could added more.

Bottom line, if the car isn't a fit don't buy it or mod/wait until it is. Its all good.

Thats very true.....this cars chassis and look are very special no doubt about that....im sure the feel is to,and for those things is why im a huge fan...your right 2 power levels would have been nice and pleasing for eveyone....

[Tbomb 25]

Originally Posted by Kunzite

It seems that in Florida, all family sedans have V8s with 300-400HP or more... which quite explains the oil crisis! :p

Tbomb 25, the WRX engine and the WRX price? Thanks but no, thanks.
This is getting ridiculous. Not every car should be made to your liking.

Are you high? Do you think it should be made to yours...and do you think im the only 1 that would want more power in this wonderful car?

[Tbomb 25]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I disagree with people who say the car should not have a higher power engine option. It definitely should, it's always better for the consumer and manufacturer if they have more options for different kinds of people.

A higher power version gives the car more prestige (which matters to people who drop this sort of money, don't deny it), more performance, and allows Subaru to compete in the "mid performance coupe" market.

It's not fair to tell AshWilliams that he should just go learn how to tune an engine and bolt on his own mods and build his own engine, but on the other hand, it's ridiculous that AshWilliams is complaining about how Subaru isn't releasing a car that suits his own needs right now. If it makes economic sense, they'll make a more upmarket version with more power, no reason to bitch that it's not arriving on release. The platform was meant to be low cost, a good place to start, and they're testing the waters right now, in a market where sports cars have been selling poorly for the past few years.

This is true i think they will....people will ask for it and they will have to deliver what all their customers want...and im really looking forward to this...

[Tbomb 25]

Originally Posted by mrtodd

Let's answer your questions one by one. Starting from the top.

First - to make your car different than all the others on the road, all while costing less than the car you mentioned. I couldn't care less about a warranty. I've built plenty of engines for performance reasons, i know what i'm getting into and i know the risks and how to steer clear of them. It sounds like you don't dare to get your hands dirty.

Second - ground effects? ......really? It sounds like you are taking this rather personally. Throwing out infantile attacks like this make me lose respect for your stated opinions. Who says i'm even going to spend 10 grand in modifications? And why are you assuming i just HAVE to reach the coveted performance of the infamous WRX STi? I never compared this to any other car. Looks like you have your own performance insecurities. Leading up to my initial comment you've only complained about lacking engine performance - but now it seems like you're frantically throwing out other claims.. To answer your question, i can spend substantially less than 10 grand to get the engine performance I want out of this car, all while keeping it very reliable.

Third - "the engine choice is deeply flawed".... How so? The more i read your responses the less it seems you've ever had any experience in engine modification/tuning. In my opinion this engine is perfect. 86 mil bore and stroke with a very low center of gravity and direct injection with an extremely high compression ratio right out of the box? This is a tuner's dream for inexpensive performance potential! I've seen smaller, less sophisticated engines make well over 350 hp, reliably, i have no worries about bringing this engine up to par with my performance expectations.

In conclusion, Ash, it sounds to me like you're a kind of person who wants everything from the get go - and there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't forget that you have to pay extra for such luxuries. Ether way, you are talking shit to people on this forum because YOU are not happy with this cars' spec sheet. You obviously have never torn apart any engine on your own, and because of this you cringe at the thought of losing a manufacturer's warranty. All of that being said, here is my official response to you: quit being a bitch and either, A) learn how to work on engines, do your own work, and make a kick ass BRZ that will satisfy your own performance expectations, or B) shut the fuck up and buy another car.

This is what i was talking about as far as being rediculous goes....people like this will turn this car community to 1 of the hated 1's....think SRT4....