Who is happy the engine will be Naturally Aspirated?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

Let's not forget that Subaru was reluctant to sell its performance turbo vehicles in the US, thinking that there'd be no market for niche turbo sedans and wagons based on WRC cars. There were heated discussions from people who believed that an RS Impreza was "just as good" as the WRX, until Subaru sac'd up and brought over the WRX and the RS suddenly disappeared from our market because who wants a car that just LOOKS like it can go fast. Today, only the most fire breathing models are kept from American shores, and we can even walk in and get an STi if we so want.

I'm just very curious what kind of logic Toyota used to sell the idea of an NA "performance" car to Subaru. Maybe it had something to do with not killing Benevolent Chairman Toyoda when he loosed this thing on the track in a flourish of geriatric driving prowess not seen since the demise of Paul Newman. I get that it handles well, so do many cars. I just don't get the dilution of performance, or why there wasn't a turbo variant available at launch.

And while people are just happy to say that "if you want a car that actually is fast, get a Genesis or WRX or Veloster Turbo or Mustang V6 or a Camaro V6 or 370Z," exactly how many 86 platforms is Toyota/Subaru going to move when everyone who has been talking this thing up on the forums gets one and the rest of the market (who has a tendency to cross shop) doesn't see the performance advantages of this car. Also, and I really hate to say this, but being one of the slowest sports cars in the segment in 0-60 times is not really a very convincing argument to get me to part with 25 grand.

I'm still hoping that Subaru makes a high-powered version of the BRZ. It's not that difficult for them to dig up some intercoolers and turbos that will immediately add some pulse to the engine, and I'm okay to wait for that. Until then, I'd rather wait for a price drop on the current crop of underpowered cars or get a used one...

we get that you want either more car or more price breaks but early reports say the car is going to sell like crazy. i think with this car they figured if you arent going to be happy with 200hp, you arent going to be happy with 250 or whatever. there are people who would be just as quick to dump on the sti and how slow and boring that piece is. this car is not about performance, its about fun. and while the wrx may post better numbers per dollar, i imagine its going to pale in comparison to the brz in the fun per dollar stat. i dont care about going fast because im not a stop watch. i just want to make sure that when im going that it is the most fun

edit:arrghh ryephile beat me to it

[AshWilliams]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

The BRZ has never been claimed to be a "performance car". Simple classic-formula sports cars are not fast, let alone "rocketships". The most satisfying sports cars ever [Elan, Miata, E-type, 356, E30//M3, Elise, S2000, ITR] were never very quick, but they are FUN to drive. Performance? No. Fun? In spades! Move your projections or irrelevant dreams about performance aside, this car isn't about that.

What is it about, then? How is a sports car that isn't fast... fun?

A lot of your comparisons are from times when the average family sedan didn't pack 250 bhp, and before the Miata became a chick car with most units being sold with a heavy mechanical hardtop.

Cars can be light, agile, and still powerful as hell, especially given today's technology that can run turbos on 87 unleaded without grenading them.

I'm just saying, you'll be at a red light one day in your shiny new "fun car" and an Accord V6 driven by a schoolteacher will blow you away because she's in a hurry and needs to get in your lane.

[serialk11r]

It's true that this car isn't that fast, it's probably the lowest acceptable amount of power they can get away with for a sports car, but why don't you just buy a more powerful car or wait for the more powerful version? More power costs money, and one of the main goals was to bring an affordable basic sports car to the market, so that people who are looking to spend 25-26k rather than 30+ have something to buy. There's a million rumors about more power already, now that they have the basic platform.

Before specs were confirmed, everyone was hoping for more like 220-230hp which would get it competing with 30k cars, but an OEM has strict regulations to comply to and cost restraints, and they weren't able to pull it off.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

What is it about, then? How is a sports car that isn't fast... fun?

What you're trying to say is, you haven't driven any of those cars I listed, have you? That's why you don't get it. You're hung up on statistics and bench racing, and literally none of that matters.

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

Cars can be light, agile, and still powerful as hell, especially given today's technology

Sounds good. Sign me up. Who's got one in the showroom?

Look, if yet another boring beige V6 sedan wants to "smoke me" at a stoplight, that's not impacting my manhood. That argument is really tired, and only shows how naive you are. Those of us that will actually buy this car aren't bothered with adolescent games of proving themselves to the entire world. You're still worried about "the competition", and as long as you do, you're not going to ever enjoy your own life. Sports cars, pure sports car, are very indulgent. They put the driver above all else, no matter who's "smoking them" at lights. They don't need to be the quickest, because the joy the car gives to the driver is irreplaceable by any magazine test or arbitrary performance metric.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Sounds good. Sign me up. Who's got one in the showroom?

He's talking about the Sonata.

[jonnyozero3]

Look guys (and gals),

Most of the folks here love the chassis, love the car. Some folks like it just how it is and what it represents for performance per dollar, and for sheer (expected) fun factor on twisty roads.

What I don't get is why most seem to assume that if a forum member wants more power, that makes them a street racing douchetard in the eyes of 90% this forum.

So, to blatantly generalize and summarize:

1) The car is by all reports amazing in the handling department on moderate-grip tires.
2) The car is only "moderately" quick in a straight line.
3) Anyone highlighting this and asking for better is burnt at the stake.

For all those claiming to not care about bench-racing, schoolteacher racing, etc, how much time have you spent on a track? Have you ever exceeded the capabilities of a vehicle?

Some people have.

Some people can carve corners like nobody's business, hit the apex and hamer out of a turn smoother than your little sister's ass.

Yet, if their car doesn't have the balls, they are never going to reel in that 370Z, M3, or Boxster ahead of them. But they want to.

Is that wrong? I would argue no. It's not a knock on the AS1, it's actually a rousing endorsement that persons who desire (and will pay) for extra power-to-weight ratio and grip want it in this chassis. The car looks great, it handles great. Subaru and Toyota just need to engineer in enough "oomph" to put the heat on some of the bigger players one or two segments above the current model.

So what? I'm just saying, stop all the immature hating. The chassis is by all reports amazing. If I will plop down $33k for this chassis with 0-60 in 4.5 seconds so I can tear some rich pricks up on the track, why not encourage it? A halo/hi-po model of the AS1 can be nothing but a good thing.

This is a case where we can have our cake and eat it too. Or whatever stupid damn metaphor you want. Bottom line: no reason we all can't be happy with $26k 200hp BRZs *and* $33k 280hp BRZs.

//rant

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

He's talking about the Sonata.

D'oh!

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

I'm just saying, you'll be at a red light one day in your shiny new "fun car" and an Accord V6 driven by a schoolteacher will blow you away because she's in a hurry and needs to get in your lane.

I can tell you now that won't matter to me, and maybe to others, that enjoy cars for what they are. The bottom line is, that like so many things in life, there is always something "better". For every sports car that you can buy at about any price range there is a V6 Accord that can dust it at a light.

What matters is the car does what you want it to do. I don't want to race a school teacher in an Accord. I want a good looking, great driving car that makes me want to drive it. None of that has to do with speed.

Its ok if that's not what you want. Just don't assume what you want is what everyone else does or cares about.

[marinjim]

Dumb question but I don't know the answer. Why does the FR-S need premium? Is it to up the HP? Does it up the HP?

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by marinjim

Dumb question but I don't know the answer. Why does the FR-S need premium? Is it to up the HP? Does it up the HP?

Yes, yes. It also probably increases the low end torque a little, which is important on a single cam profile high strung engine like this.

jonnyozero3, it's not that people who want more power are unjustified or bad, it's that a lot of them tend to be unreasonable and whiny. I think everyone understands this is a slow car, but for the price they couldn't give it more power than this, and for some reason people are still complaining, even though higher power versions, aftermarket supercharger kits, etc. are being promised, nevermind the fact that you can already go out and buy a Porsche Boxster or Cayman or Lotus or 370Z or something that has the power they're looking for.

[jimmillion]

^ I agree

there needs to be a big banner at the top of the main forum page stating that both Toyota and Subaru have made it clear that any engine power gains are going to be strictly aftermarket. Which was the true intention of this project. ...allowing the tuning community of yester-years to be revived and active again.

footnotes: everyone whining about wanting factory supplied engine upgrades is the very reason why we don't have Best-Motoring any more. /thread

[AshWilliams]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Those of us that will actually buy this car aren't bothered with adolescent games of proving themselves to the entire world. You're still worried about "the competition", and as long as you do, you're not going to ever enjoy your own life. Sports cars, pure sports car, are very indulgent. They put the driver above all else, no matter who's "smoking them" at lights. They don't need to be the quickest, because the joy the car gives to the driver is irreplaceable by any magazine test or arbitrary performance metric.

So, if I go to a track day, I'll be blown away by the Mustangs, 370Zs, Camaros, Genesis coupes... because no matter how good of a driver one claims to be, this car will get annihilated on the straights and it'll be a battle to catch up in the corners.

And if I want to drive around town, I'll have a hard time keeping up with modern family sedans if their drivers actually want to use that pedal next to the brake because this car is 'barely adequate.'

But, maybe, if I somehow get on some road in the middle of nowhere on a Sunday morning I'll have the pleasure of driving this "not for everyone, just the cognoscenti--you wouldn't understand" car until a more powerful vehicle shows up in the rear view mirror and starts to tailgate me.

This must be one hell of a car that I have to rationalize away all of its power shortcomings in lieu of modest handling performance.

Manufacturers listen to forums--sometimes. And I am steadfast in my belief that this car is wrong in its engine choice and needs a performance edition from the Subaru part of the marriage. Not even mentioning that if they make a performance edition, the purists can always buy the much slower model. The family wagon Impreza is still sold alongside the WRX, after all.

[serialk11r]

AshWilliams, I actually agree with you in concept, there should be a faster version, and there apparently is one coming out. So just chill out, and stop sounding so angry (I can't tell if you actually are or not), no need to mention it over and over. It's a good car as it stands, a higher power version for people with more cash will probably come along soon enough and make everyone happy.

[Exhaust]

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

And if I want to drive around town, I'll have a hard time keeping up with modern family sedans if their drivers actually want to use that pedal next to the brake because this car is 'barely adequate.'

You are beyond ridiculous, you act like every car on the highway is bouncing the governor. I drive a 09 corolla and have no problem catching or keeping up with other cars at 162HP of course its not sports car fast but even 119 is adequate HP. Grow up.