Tracking with Forced Induction

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by car_roll

Fast driver > fast car.



OP can benefit more from better driving, better driving, even better driving, better tires, and better suspension, in that order. Power should be one of the last things to worry about.

Truth


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[glamcem]

I have to disagree with some of the above comments ..yes, the tires, brakes and suspension mods make a lot of difference but I think we all have to agree that this car is very very slow in stock form simply because it doesn't make a healthy 200 hp with its torque dip... and OP already mentioned that he tracks his FRS regularly so don't you think that "address other issues before more power" line getting old?

Also "fast driver > fast car" is a very bold statement.. how much of a fast or technologically advanced car are we talking about here? sure a more experienced driver can make better lap times in his/hers slightly lesser car but I can almost guarantee you if you put a mediocre driver in a GT-R, he/she'll be always faster than your stock powered BRZ/FRS unless of course it's their very first track day or something wrong with the car simply because GT-R does everything for the driver and a lot easier to drive fast with confidence .. HP advantage makes up for the difference in many cases .. take a look at the below video that I took last week, I am pretty sure the driver in the GT3RS is a new driver or something (brake, tires) are wrong with his car since even I was a lot faster at tight corners and was able to catch him! the car pulls away like a train as soon as it sees a straightaway which makes it for the difference easily (my car is stock powered with Nitto NT01 R -comps) does that mean fast driver > fast car ? no, it only means fast driver > extremely slow driver (or fast car with a problem)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvz-aYHuF44"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvz-aYHuF44[/ame]

Long story short this car only lacks about 50hp ( stable hp without the dip) not some crazy amount of power but rather sufficient power to balance its weight

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I have to disagree with some of the above comments ..yes, the tires, brakes and suspension mods make a lot of difference but I think we all have to agree that this car is very very slow in stock form simply because it doesn't make a healthy 200 hp with its torque dip... and OP already mentioned that he tracks his FRS regularly so don't you think that "address other issues before more power" line getting old?

Also "fast driver > fast car" is a very bold statement.. how much of a fast or technologically advanced car are we talking about here? sure a more experienced driver can make better lap times in his/hers slightly lesser car but I can almost guarantee you if you put a mediocre driver in a GT-R, he/she'll be always faster than your stock powered BRZ/FRS unless of course it's their very first track day or something wrong with the car simply because GT-R does everything for the driver and a lot easier to drive fast with confidence .. HP advantage makes up for the difference in many cases .. take a look at the below video that I took last week, I am pretty sure the driver in the GT3RS is a new driver or something (brake, tires) are wrong with his car since even I was a lot faster at tight corners and was able to catch him! the car pulls away like a train as soon as it sees a straightaway which makes it for the difference easily (my car is stock powered with Nitto NT01 R -comps) does that mean fast driver > fast car ? no, it only means fast driver > extremely slow driver (or fast car with a problem)

Long story short this car only lacks about 50hp ( stable hp without the dip) not some crazy amount of power but rather sufficient power to balance its weight

I'll take that bet.

Tell me how many GT-Rs you can find that lap Buttonwillow under 2:00.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by diss7

I don't agree this, it insinuates that a turbo charger system is less reliable, simply because it has marginally more parts. One could argue that's a benefit, as if a blow off valve needs replacing, it's a generic part, ditto with the turbo, the housing, the wastegate. Also, turbo systems are much easier to service. Take the unit out and send it to the local recon shop, $400 later and it's good to go. SC's often have to go back to the manufactuer.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Then you got manifolds to deal with, additional heat from all the extra piping that has to hold exhaust gas that's radiating heat, additional oil heat that needs to be cooled off, the turbine itself radiating heat, etc.

So since everyone LOVES to say that their turbo setup runs cool, I'll say it again: Lets see if your turbo setup can survive 3 laps at the track with me driving.

Heat is an issue. The fact that Mercedes separated their hotside and coldside is precisely why the Mercedes engines are dominating in F1 right now. They eliminated a major source of heat.

[car_roll]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I have to disagree with some of the above comments ..yes, the tires, brakes and suspension mods make a lot of difference but I think we all have to agree that this car is very very slow in stock form simply because it doesn't make a healthy 200 hp with its torque dip... and OP already mentioned that he tracks his FRS regularly so don't you think that "address other issues before more power" line getting old?

Also "fast driver > fast car" is a very bold statement.. how much of a fast or technologically advanced car are we talking about here? sure a more experienced driver can make better lap times in his/hers slightly lesser car but I can almost guarantee you if you put a mediocre driver in a GT-R, he/she'll be always faster than your stock powered BRZ/FRS unless of course it's their very first track day or something wrong with the car simply because GT-R does everything for the driver and a lot easier to drive fast with confidence .. HP advantage makes up for the difference in many cases.. take a look at the below video that I took last week, I am pretty sure the driver in the GT3RS is a new driver or something (brake, tires) are wrong with his car since even I was a lot faster at tight corners and was able to catch him! the car pulls away like a train as soon as it sees a straightaway which makes it for the difference easily (my car is stock powered with Nitto NT01 R -comps) does that mean fast driver > fast car ? no, it only means fast driver > extremely slow driver (or fast car with a problem)

Long story short this car only lacks about 50hp ( stable hp without the dip) not some crazy amount of power but rather sufficient power to balance its weight

"Tracking regularly" is a very general statement. It can mean anywhere from once a month, to six times a year, to almost every weekend. In all cases there is ALWAYS room for improvement. It's not so much "address other issues before power". It's more so, build on your current driving skill so you can use that when making changes. That being said, I favor the lack of power this chassis possesses (I do agree this car is slow as shit), because it forces the driver to focus on their line, braking, corner exit etc. With gobs of horsepower, like the gtr for example, the driver could basically turn a single lap into multiple drag races, and quite possibly yield a faster lap time than your seasoned driver in a stock power frs/brz. What happens if you stick that driver in a slow car? All of a sudden he's all over the track, taking the wrong lines, and now he can't rely on straight line speed. Now reverse that and put a seasoned driver in a gtr. he'll be taking the correct lines, exiting corners perfectly and netting faster lap times in no time.

By fast driver > fast car, I don't mean a seasoned driver in a miata will be faster around the track than a medicore driver in a gtr. What I mean by this is driving skill ALWAYS comes first. A seasoned driver will be able to utilize changes to the car much better than a medicore driver can.

[diss7]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

That's exactly what I'm saying. Then you got manifolds to deal with, additional heat from all the extra piping that has to hold exhaust gas that's radiating heat, additional oil heat that needs to be cooled off, the turbine itself radiating heat, etc.

So since everyone LOVES to say that their turbo setup runs cool, I'll say it again: Lets see if your turbo setup can survive 3 laps at the track with me driving.

Heat is an issue. The fact that Mercedes separated their hotside and coldside is precisely why the Mercedes engines are dominating in F1 right now. They eliminated a major source of heat.

I had a bullet sc kit, with intercooler; and sold it because it got hot.

I blame the IC unit being too small.

F1 comparison is strange. Boxer has hot parts on bottom cool parts on top.

70% of the heat in the engine bay is from the engine itself, not the hot parts.

Just because you can overheat the car at the track doesn't make you a better driver by the way. The difference between a good driver and a great driver might be a second or two per lap, but you're only working with the same motor. A great driver doesn't magically load the engine more.

The key to this car is managing the airflow. Air in air out. I can assure you that's what I'll be focusing on with my new system.

I don't think it will be that hard.

[Tye300]

IMO, the centrifugal sc kits with FMIC (Vortech, JR, KW) seem to manage heat better than the turbo kits with the turbo located near the radiator. Before I got the Vortech, I was looking at the AVO kit. I had other turbo cars in the past and wanted to try the sc route so I went with the Vortech.
I have a buddy here with a FBM kit and he has yet to track his car because he is afraid of the car overheating. I've seen his car after some spirited runs on the street and it does run hot. Even with the supporting cooling mods.
@diss7, I have been following your cars build and know you were disappointed with the bullet kit. It seems to have put you off on super chargers on this platform. I get that. But the bullet/innovate kit design seemed to be less heat efficient than the other sc kits.

[Reaper]

I'm running a gtx28 on the street at 16psi in the south with factory radiator, no oil cooler and no overheating. 8+quart oil pan filled with amsoil dominator helps.

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[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by Reaper

I'm running a gtx28 on the street at 16psi in the south with factory radiator, no oil cooler and no overheating. 8+quart oil pan filled with amsoil dominator helps.

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Street and track are 2 completely different animals

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[Reaper]

Really? I'm fully aware of this. I was commenting because people in the same location as me making similar power are having overheating problems WITH a radiator and oil cooler but without a high capacity oil pan.

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[DC2R]

Originally Posted by Reaper

I'm running a gtx28 on the street at 16psi in the south with factory radiator, no oil cooler and no overheating. 8+quart oil pan filled with amsoil dominator helps.

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Location? What pan?

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[Reaper]

Georgia, map performance.

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[glamcem]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I'll take that bet.

Tell me how many GT-Rs you can find that lap Buttonwillow under 2:00.

I am not sure which configuration you are referring to, I have never been to Buttonwillow but I will eventually
This is the only result that I could find where I can compare GT-R to BRZ ..it's a whopping 17 seconds faster in a 2 mins circuit ( no surprise there)
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/button...ration_13.html

but I see your point on a very tight track GT-R has a lot of weight to fight with but I still doubt a stock powered BRZ/FRS can keep up with a GT-R , and like I said there are exceptions such as extremely inexperienced driver driving it..

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by car_roll

"Tracking regularly" is a very general statement. It can mean anywhere from once a month, to six times a year, to almost every weekend. In all cases there is ALWAYS room for improvement. It's not so much "address other issues before power". It's more so, build on your current driving skill so you can use that when making changes. That being said, I favor the lack of power this chassis possesses (I do agree this car is slow as shit), because it forces the driver to focus on their line, braking, corner exit etc. With gobs of horsepower, like the gtr for example, the driver could basically turn a single lap into multiple drag races, and quite possibly yield a faster lap time than your seasoned driver in a stock power frs/brz. What happens if you stick that driver in a slow car? All of a sudden he's all over the track, taking the wrong lines, and now he can't rely on straight line speed. Now reverse that and put a seasoned driver in a gtr. he'll be taking the correct lines, exiting corners perfectly and netting faster lap times in no time.

By fast driver > fast car, I don't mean a seasoned driver in a miata will be faster around the track than a medicore driver in a gtr. What I mean by this is driving skill ALWAYS comes first. A seasoned driver will be able to utilize changes to the car much better than a medicore driver can.

Don't get me wrong I agree with you on most of the things you mentioned above but I never said gobs of power I actually mentioned that "this car lacks about 50 hp not crazy amount of hp" or solid power delivery ,,maybe I shouldn't have used numbers but say "healthy power delivery that is a better match to car's weight".. I gave that GT-R example to point out something...of course it's always better to learn with a slower car than a high HP car but for a guy who already saw "some" track days you get to those limits pretty quickly.. also many people on online discussion forums look down the other people's abilities and use phrases such as "car has plenty of power, learn how to handle that first and address other issues first then add more power".. please don't get me wrong I am not saying you said such a thing but I think you know what I am talking about, I am just tired of hearing this cliche you would be surprised how some young drivers are capable of, I used to think the same way then I realized we live in a different era that many youngsters can take advantage of internet and youtube to capture information a lot more efficiently than trial and error of 20+ years of driving (my case ugh)