Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

I'm not familiar with the RS-3 tires. I'm more familiar with the Direzza ZII, Michelin PSS, R888s, RA1s for the track.

I agree 100% with @orthojoe on that comment. You ALWAYS should be driving the 10/10th line even if you are not driving your car to 10/10ths. The only exception to that rule, which doesn't apply here, is in wheel to wheel racing, where not driving the line is due to race craft.

-Mike Paisan


Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

I will make it a point to do this next time. RS-3 are on the about the same level of grip as z2 or pss if not slightly better, from what I've gathered.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

Not angry, amused. I can't figure out why you're asking on a public forum either because according to you, you're nailing those apexes, you know the line, you're driving so smoothly that VSC slows you down big time, and you can't be bothered to track out because it will slow you down.... yet your lap times suck. But, you've got it all figured out because you just need to go through that corner faster. So simple! Turn off that VSC, go flat out, and let us know how it goes.

Anyone want to volunteer to be his coach? (crickets)

Thanks for the advice and flames, good sir.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

I'm not familiar with the RS-3 tires. I'm more familiar with the Direzza ZII, Michelin PSS, R888s, RA1s for the track.

On this note (and I know the answer here is dependent on a lot of factors), what kind of tire pressures do you like to run for PSSs? Also, what kind of temperatures do you see them get up to?

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Well here is a lap I did recorded on Harry's with the phone mounted behind the rear view mirror. I found this to be an ideal position if it doesn't get too hot to overheat your phone.

This was 4pm in the afternoon, and I'm worrying about why I haven't gone any faster. Please try not to fall asleep. http://s174.photobucket.com/user/sol..._5286.mp4.html

All I see is that I'm not going fast enough not carrying enough speed and wondering if I should downshift at the double apexes. Does this not look smooth? I think I clipped most of the apexes as well. Also, not sure if I'm not giving enough pressure to get a point by. Please critique!

I am only an intermediate driver (currently 9 HPDE days) so take this with a grain of salt/let the more experienced people chime in on my observations, but from looking at your videos I see several things that my instructors have pounded on me to get rid of (I'm still fighting some of these). Also I've never been to that track so I don't know how it should be driven; I am guessing about the line.

1. First and most importantly: look forward. Something about your line (not sure which part) really reminds me of what was happening when I would stare at the apex until hitting it.

2. Don't add steering input to hit at apex (I see you doing this several times as your car's angle of attack changes rather abruptly, could also be punchy trail braking). As you start going faster that will bite you by upsetting the car's balance. As it is you are probably triggering the traction control with that change of attack. Your car wants to set into an attack and bite, upsetting it makes you loose traction and scares your car's electronics.

3. As my instructors said, you paid for the whole track, use it. Tracking out, even when you don't feel it is required by the car's traction, does two things. First it makes it so you are used to the line when you do push the car out farther (and you aren't having a "Oh shit!" moment when you first see that you are pointed somewhere new while exiting a corner). Second, it gives your tires some rest/a chance to not be overheating them which can start to happen when you hit high slip angles (this is one of my current issues, I'm overdriving my tires for several reasons, I am going to post on this thread about it later today to ask for some advice myself).

4. Don't pinch your corners. This is related to #3 but still. You can get on the throttle sooner by not having as much steering lock and that means getting that much more speed that much sooner.

5. Don't worry about lap times. They are an interesting thing to look at for me at my level (and I suspect you too), but I'm having too much variance to get a meaningful time. Each thing I improve changes something else which then needs to be accounted for in subsequent parts. That is tricky and for me makes things vary alot. I am also at the tail end of my run group so I loose time letting people pass me (I actually like this because it makes me get a better feel for the car as I enter turns in different ways/speeds. That way when I mess up I have a better idea what will happen and how to control it along with the different messages the car gives me).

6. Not sure if you are doing this, but be careful that you aren't fixating on the car in front of you. You were in alot of traffic and that makes it hard to practice full speed. You can still get the line though (and if you do it right you will pick up elements of the track that you don't perceive otherwise).

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Chill out man... I do appreciate input. And what I'm saying is not excuse it just describing what I'm thinking and doing. if I seriously think I have it figured out why would I even ask this on a public forum? I wouldn't and I don't. So... No need for angry posting. Mmkay?

I believe you when you say you're just explaining what you're thinking/doing. You think you're already doing what others are suggesting (hitting apexes, driving the line, tracking out, smooth inputs), so it's frustrating. I've been there before.

I would suggest getting a ride-along with an instructor, preferably with him driving your car. Sometimes you can't really tell what it's supposed to look like until you've got someone to demonstrate it for you. If you're a visual learner like me, watching > hearing. Just my suggestion

I think you're right about keeping VSC off btw. Won't learn the car otherwise.

[ayau]

Some things I need to work on but will maybe help you as well...

Getting the track map and studying the lines, especially if the track is foreign to you. It's a lot easier to visualize the lines when you're looking at the map versus driving it. Must be a perspective thing. It's always easier to look top down than from the driving perspective.

Using reference points. Mark reference points when trying to hit an apex. That way you can consistently hit the same apex and not worry about guessing it.

Use the tire marks on the track as a guide. More often than not, the tire marks are pretty close to the correct driving line.

Maybe once I master the fundamentals, I can work on tire preservation so I can save on tire costs, lol.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

I am only an intermediate driver (currently 9 HPDE days) so take this with a grain of salt/let the more experienced people chime in on my observations, but from looking at your videos I see several things that my instructors have pounded on me to get rid of (I'm still fighting some of these). Also I've never been to that track so I don't know how it should be driven; I am guessing about the line.

1. First and most importantly: look forward. Something about your line (not sure which part) really reminds me of what was happening when I would stare at the apex until hitting it.

2. Don't add steering input to hit at apex (I see you doing this several times as your car's angle of attack changes rather abruptly, could also be punchy trail braking). As you start going faster that will bite you by upsetting the car's balance. As it is you are probably triggering the traction control with that change of attack. Your car wants to set into an attack and bite, upsetting it makes you loose traction and scares your car's electronics.

3. As my instructors said, you paid for the whole track, use it. Tracking out, even when you don't feel it is required by the car's traction, does two things. First it makes it so you are used to the line when you do push the car out farther (and you aren't having a "Oh shit!" moment when you first see that you are pointed somewhere new while exiting a corner). Second, it gives your tires some rest/a chance to not be overheating them which can start to happen when you hit high slip angles (this is one of my current issues, I'm overdriving my tires for several reasons, I am going to post on this thread about it later today to ask for some advice myself).

4. Don't pinch your corners. This is related to #3 but still. You can get on the throttle sooner by not having as much steering lock and that means getting that much more speed that much sooner.

5. Don't worry about lap times. They are an interesting thing to look at for me at my level (and I suspect you too), but I'm having too much variance to get a meaningful time. Each thing I improve changes something else which then needs to be accounted for in subsequent parts. That is tricky and for me makes things vary alot. I am also at the tail end of my run group so I loose time letting people pass me (I actually like this because it makes me get a better feel for the car as I enter turns in different ways/speeds. That way when I mess up I have a better idea what will happen and how to control it along with the different messages the car gives me).

6. Not sure if you are doing this, but be careful that you aren't fixating on the car in front of you. You were in alot of traffic and that makes it hard to practice full speed. You can still get the line though (and if you do it right you will pick up elements of the track that you don't perceive otherwise).

And here I was thinking I was being very smooth with my inputs, save for the end of the last 2 turns before the front straight... The traction control was off, and I'm assuming the abrupt change in steering you're talking about was at the double apexes, where I added more steering to hit the second apexes. I think the delayed throttle is partly due to me trying to be very gradual with the throttle in my attempt to be as smooth as I can be and not stab the throttle. Kinda over did it, I see that very clearly in the video. That is definitely something I can correct easily now that I see it and something I don't have to be on the track to practice. I think I am indeed fixating on the car in front toward the latter half of the lap, thinking am I close enough to his tail to get a point by? Actually trying to setup to pass him at the front straight but messed up. He pointed me by anyway. Lol

Thanks for the detailed and non-douchey critique. This will help me a lot.

[CSG David]

Slow down your driving and figure out your lines.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by CSG David

Slow down your driving and figure out your lines.

Slow down? I think I'm going pretty slow already, no? With my coasting into and gradual throttle(not stomping) increase out of the turn. Besides not tracking out what else is wrong about my lines. I think my lines through the esses were decent, no? Also, berms. Should hit it, as in roll over it with inside wheel, every time and every turn?

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by solidONE

And here I was thinking I was being very smooth with my inputs, save for the end of the last 2 turns before the front straight... The traction control was off, and I'm assuming the abrupt change in steering you're talking about was at the double apexes, where I added more steering to hit the second apexes. I think the delayed throttle is partly due to me trying to be very gradual with the throttle in my attempt to be as smooth as I can be and not stab the throttle. Kinda over did it, I see that very clearly in the video. That is definitely something I can correct easily now that I see it and something I don't have to be on the track to practice. I think I am indeed fixating on the car in front toward the latter half of the lap, thinking am I close enough to his tail to get a point by? Actually trying to setup to pass him at the front straight but messed up. He pointed me by anyway. Lol

Thanks for the detailed and non-douchey critique. This will help me a lot.

Regarding the change in steering, I saw it in several places but it was quite obvious in the double apexes. Holding the constant steering is something I never REALLY understood until I did a tiny correction on turn 8 at Thunderhill and had the stability control save me. That turn is a high speed corner (something like 60 degrees, I'm not really sure) and I was going through at I think a little under 90 Mph (some people take it over 100 I think), and had a instinctual "Oh Shit!" as I saw the edge of the road in front of me. I'd done it at that speed before but it just hit me that time and I lost my smoothness for a fraction of a second and upset the cars balance (I tried to tighten the steering lock ever so slightly). The result was a nasty little fish tail at corner exit and an important demonstration about what the instructors were talking about.

About the throttle, you do want to be easy about rolling on the throttle. I've heard people joke about our cars having a on/off button for the throttle with "only" 200HP, but as I've gotten a better feel for the car I'm finding more and more the amazing changes you can have on the handling through a little right foot application. What I was talking more is that the less steering lock the more throttle you can use before you have adverse effects happen. The best/simplest description I've heard from several coaches (I've had quite a few very excellent ones ) is that you can imagine your throttle and brake being attached to your steering wheel with a string. The more you turn the wheel the less you can use the pedals before bad things happen. By tracking out/not pinching corners you can have more throttle sooner as you unwind your steering. At the same time the smoothness that comes with that more gradual unwinding keeps the car settled and happy to apply that power.

As far as other people being grumpy, I think that probably comes from lots of beginners (like us) thinking that they are doing something when we aren't really doing what they are saying. We might not be as brutally bad as we were when we started, but to them we are still way off target. I've improved many orders of magnitude over where I started but when I get a ride with some of the better coaches I am still astonished by how much vastly smoother their driving is. I can't really fully describe it, but the more I get better the more I realize how much further I have to go. Remember when the more experienced people are giving you crap for thinking you are smooth or some such, it is because they are just that much further ahead of us and they are tired of people thinking they are already doing something. Also, I think most everything I said was mentioned with less explanation by other people.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I believe you when you say you're just explaining what you're thinking/doing. You think you're already doing what others are suggesting (hitting apexes, driving the line, tracking out, smooth inputs), so it's frustrating. I've been there before.

I would suggest getting a ride-along with an instructor, preferably with him driving your car. Sometimes you can't really tell what it's supposed to look like until you've got someone to demonstrate it for you. If you're a visual learner like me, watching > hearing. Just my suggestion

I think you're right about keeping VSC off btw. Won't learn the car otherwise.

That's one thing a forgot to do is get a ride along. I was stressing after the second time sheets got posted I totally forgot. Bight side is now I know my setup is pretty good for stock springs and dampers. -2.0fr -1.8fl -1.3rr -0.8lr camber with 3 sets of bolts less driver weight. Tire temps were pretty even, slightly hotter on the outsides. No shoulder wear on front tires. No snappiness on mid corner throttle, not this day on this track. Although I did spin off a off camber turn the first session, but that's because I stomped the throttle on the apex.

I have a pretty good idea (theory)why some factory alignments may cause it to feel like it under on entry then oversteer on exit. Probably more pronounce on either left turns or in right turns only on other 86's.. Shit is lopsided from the factory by 0.5 degrees!

[ddeflyer]

I forgot to add that you can have smooth inputs and still upset the car which will then be seen as being "unsmooth". That mistake actually tripped me up in my first few HPDEs. Really the measure of smooth isn't what we do with the controls, it is what we cause the car to do which gets into all sorts of questions around balance, weight transfer, brake use, throttle use, clutch use, tire slip angles, how those slip angles are exceeded and recovered, what the track's camber changes do to the suspension load, and of course the actual track conditions/rough spots.

Damn, every time I go out I'm adding more things to that list; I'll never be smooth at this rate

[Wyattkb]

I never had an issue with VSC impeding my laps at my current skill level. Although it did save me from spinning out on a sweeping turn into a tire barrier.


I was running VSC sport on stock tires on a bumpy track in AZ. (Wild Horse Pass)

With VSC off you will be able to get faster lap times, but if you are constantly engaging the VSC there is something wrong.


Also, my instructor drove with VSC on, not even in sport mode and had no issues with it engaging.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

As far as other people being grumpy, I think that probably comes from lots of beginners (like us) thinking that they are doing something when we aren't really doing what they are saying. people.

Nah... I think some people are just douchbags with fragile egos. If they dont think you're taking their word as gospel off the bat they start attacking and insulting you for seemingly no reason. Well, I know the reason. I've dealt with many people like this. Mike is a veteran and a very quick one at that. Not a douche. David is a vet. Again, not a douche. APZ Installs and dradernh instructors and racers... veterans. Showed interest in helping and go out of their way to do so. Zero douchbaggary comming from either one. None of those named are out here to prove how much better or how much more they know than others. See the difference?