Negotiating a Pre-Order

[FRSNewb]

So here's the update...basically my entire dream of owning this car has turned into one big nightmare with the dealership I'm dealing with. When I had gone in to pay the deposit, they basically got me to sign the bill of sale for the vehicle itself, and this was never properly explained to me what I was doing (feel free to bash me for not reading what I was signing). I thought I went in for a credit check and thats all I was signing; I didn't know I needed to buy a friggin car before they even shipped it to the dealership (to me this makes no sense from a customer perspective; buying something without seeing it but from a business perspective I suppose I can understand they don't want to just bring the car here, incur those expenses and then I walk away - this is how the sales guy explained it to me yesterday). So as of right now I'm stuck in this POS contract with them wanting 28k +tax for the veh plus a 4.99% finance rate which is complete garbage.....I know for a fact I can get way better than this.

Tomorrow I'm slated to go look at the car finally, however tomorrow morning I'll probably be sitting down with the dealership President to explain my predicament in hopes that something can be worked out. If not, I feel like simply giving them the finger and walking out of the dealership and going elsewhere. I found another FRS that is $5,000 cheaper than this one the dealer has me on the hook for, so I may just go buy this other veh, and incur whatever fees my dealer will throw at me, in addition to losing my deposit, in hopes that it'll be far less than the difference in pricing of the other FRS

I'm just right pissed off with this whole thing as I feel deceived with this deal and something that was supposed to be exciting for me, has now turned into one big clusterfuck....

I've contacted OMVIC to see what I can do, including forwarding them the bill of sale itself so hoping to hear back from them sometime today

[Boxer486]

You don't have consumer protection laws covering auto deposits in Canada?

Threaten deceptive practices and bait and switch on them. Get the contact information of your Attorney General or equivalent and show it to the President. Also say you'll contact Toyota Canada to report their exploitative behavior.

These are all things you can do if the President fails to work with you.

[thill]

Originally Posted by FRSNewb

So here's the update...basically my entire dream of owning this car has turned into one big nightmare with the dealership I'm dealing with. When I had gone in to pay the deposit, they basically got me to sign the bill of sale for the vehicle itself, and this was never properly explained to me what I was doing (feel free to bash me for not reading what I was signing). I thought I went in for a credit check and thats all I was signing; I didn't know I needed to buy a friggin car before they even shipped it to the dealership (to me this makes no sense from a customer perspective; buying something without seeing it but from a business perspective I suppose I can understand they don't want to just bring the car here, incur those expenses and then I walk away - this is how the sales guy explained it to me yesterday). So as of right now I'm stuck in this POS contract with them wanting 28k +tax for the veh plus a 4.99% finance rate which is complete garbage.....I know for a fact I can get way better than this.

Tomorrow I'm slated to go look at the car finally, however tomorrow morning I'll probably be sitting down with the dealership President to explain my predicament in hopes that something can be worked out. If not, I feel like simply giving them the finger and walking out of the dealership and going elsewhere. I found another FRS that is $5,000 cheaper than this one the dealer has me on the hook for, so I may just go buy this other veh, and incur whatever fees my dealer will throw at me, in addition to losing my deposit, in hopes that it'll be far less than the difference in pricing of the other FRS

I'm just right pissed off with this whole thing as I feel deceived with this deal and something that was supposed to be exciting for me, has now turned into one big clusterfuck....

I've contacted OMVIC to see what I can do, including forwarding them the bill of sale itself so hoping to hear back from them sometime today

I can see where you are frustrated, and I have to believe you will be able to get out of it, but you also signed your name to all this. I don't see how you can sign your name on all these pages and not know what you are signing your name to.

Since you don't have the car, you should be able to void the contract and potentially just lose any costs the dealer had transferring the car.

[FRSNewb]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

You don't have consumer protection laws covering auto deposits in Canada?

Threaten deceptive practices and bait and switch on them. Get the contact information of your Attorney General or equivalent and show it to the President. Also say you'll contact Toyota Canada to report their exploitative behavior.

These are all things you can do if the President fails to work with you.

Sadly Ontario is lacking alot of Consumer Protection rights when it comes to car purchasing including a 'cooling off period'. I'm hoping the President will given the close relationship him and my dad share (unfortunately the President only came to know this AFTER the fact so tomorrow morning I'll see what can happen) and something can be worked out to renegotiate the contract so I don't have to pursue anything further but if need be I'll take your advice

Originally Posted by thill

I can see where you are frustrated, and I have to believe you will be able to get out of it, but you also signed your name to all this. I don't see how you can sign your name on all these pages and not know what you are signing your name to.

Since you don't have the car, you should be able to void the contract and potentially just lose any costs the dealer had transferring the car.

Call it a 'rookie' mistake or however you want to spell it out to me, yes I should have read over what I was signing. They only had me sign one document which IMO was just so they could do a credit check; didn't even cross my mind I was signing a bill of sale (this is based on the shady wording of the Finance Manager) for the vehicle.

I can still technically refuse delivery of the vehicle and void the contract that way, but again I risk losing my deposit and incurring additional fees. OMVIC called me back and told the bill of sale was valid so this is my only course of action if something cannot be worked out tomorrow morning.

[thill]

Well if lost your $1K deposit, it would still be better in the long run than buying this car when you found another for $5K cheaper.

Sorry you are going through this. My advice is to be courteous and professional with the president of the dealer tomorrow and just lay it all out on the table. You have done your homework. It seems like the dealer would be better off trying to work with you than lose a sale.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by FRSNewb

So here's the update...basically my entire dream of owning this car has turned into one big nightmare with the dealership I'm dealing with. When I had gone in to pay the deposit, they basically got me to sign the bill of sale for the vehicle itself,

Weeeell ... maybe.

But, my guess is that the document you signed is NOT the bill of sale and you are NOT contractually bound to purchase this vehicle.

However, it is commonplace for dealers to TELL YOU that it's a contract and that you MUST BUY IT.

Basically ... they're lying.

They don't want you to go elsewhere; they want to lock you into the idea that this is a done deal. It isn't, and they know it, but figure the buyer does NOT know it. And so they bully you into believing it.

That doesn't mean yours is not a binding contract; it may be. But, I doubt it.

If the dealer bought this used car from another dealer on your say-so, and paid to have it transported to them, then I do think you have a duty to compensate them for that, if only by buying a different vehicle from them ... such as a new FR-S. Otherwise, they're stuck with a used car they may not want.

It's an interesting legal and ethical question.

You have a copy of the document you signed, right?

Does it show a full description of the vehicle, INCLUDING THE VIN?

[forzajuve]

I want to help but tldr. So this is a pointless reply. Good luck!

[J_kennington]

I know I live in the states. But I got my NEW 13 for 25k out the door(after all fees and everything). Granted I only put 800 down and have a high monthly due to it. I still wouldn't pay 27k for a used one.

[FRSNewb]

Originally Posted by Porsche

Weeeell ... maybe.

But, my guess is that the document you signed is NOT the bill of sale and you are NOT contractually bound to purchase this vehicle.

However, it is commonplace for dealers to TELL YOU that it's a contract and that you MUST BUY IT.

Basically ... they're lying.

They don't want you to go elsewhere; they want to lock you into the idea that this is a done deal. It isn't, and they know it, but figure the buyer does NOT know it. And so they bully you into believing it.

That doesn't mean yours is not a binding contract; it may be. But, I doubt it.

If the dealer bought this used car from another dealer on your say-so, and paid to have it transported to them, then I do think you have a duty to compensate them for that, if only by buying a different vehicle from them ... such as a new FR-S. Otherwise, they're stuck with a used car they may not want.

It's an interesting legal and ethical question.

You have a copy of the document you signed, right?

Does it show a full description of the vehicle, INCLUDING THE VIN?

It is a bill of sale and I do have a copy of it in my possession; I only got the copy of it yesterday though (almost 3 weeks later after initially signing it, and only because I asked to get it after this whole clusterfuck came to light). The Bill of Sale is valid and has all the info on it, even had OMVIC have a look at it for me.

As you had said, if I should cancel the contract, then I imagine I'd lose my deposit and any expenses like the shipping expense would come out of that and then some. Certainly I'm going to have an interesting conversation tomorrow and however things turn out, I'll have an FR-S by Monday at the latest, even if it means going to buy the other car from another dealership.

Originally Posted by J_kennington

I know I live in the states. But I got my NEW 13 for 25k out the door(after all fees and everything). Granted I only put 800 down and have a high monthly due to it. I still wouldn't pay 27k for a used one.

They want 28k which is rediculous plus 4.99% finance rate

[Annahra]

Yeah, you really don't want them to bring a car in for you until you are pretty set on price. Sucks that they didn't explain clearly what you were signing!! I hope you can get it straightened out, maybe transfer the deposit to a new one.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by FRSNewb

It is a bill of sale and I do have a copy of it in my possession; I only got the copy of it yesterday though (almost 3 weeks later after initially signing it, and only because I asked to get it after this whole clusterfuck came to light). The Bill of Sale is valid and has all the info on it, even had OMVIC have a look at it for me.

That is strange, I must say.

As I understand you, this auto dealership had you sign a bill of sale, a binding contract, to purchase a USED CAR that was unavailable for you to examine and test drive.

An order-out NEW car is one thing, but a USED CAR?!

And then they misled and deceived you about what they had you sign?

Now, if this used car had been on the premises, available for you to examine and test drive before signing a bill of sale, that would be reasonable for them to expect you to buy it.

Still, I wouldn't think they could force you to complete the purchase against your will. They do have your deposit, though.

It's not really a done deal until you sign ALL of the paperwork and actually drive the car off the premises. Then it's yours.

If you have a Small Claims court in Canada as we have in the USA, you might wish to avail yourself of their services. I'd think a judge would rule in your favor in this case.

A happier ending, given that you still want an FR-S, would be to buy a new FR-S from this dealer with the downpayment applying to the new car purchase. Maybe they might charge you a small fee for transporting the used car from the other dealership. In the USA dealers typically employ older retired folks to drive cars around in dealer trades.

So, maybe you pay them $50 for the gas and hourly wage for the driver.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that they're motivated by any sense of "fairness." That's unlikely.

Without knowing any further details, my suggestion is that you present your case about being deceived on the bill of sale, say that you've since changed your mind, and then keep repeating "I'd really rather..."

And fill in the blank about what you'd really rather do and buy, such as a new FR-S, for example, applying your deposit on the former car towards the new car purchase.

"I've changed my mind. I'd really rather apply my deposit towards a NEW FR-S."

No matter what they say, don't argue with them. Just keep repeating the above two sentences.

They'll say, "Yeah, but you agreed to buy..."

And you say, "I've changed my mind. I'd really rather apply my deposit towards a NEW FR-S."

Keep mindlessly repeating that until you think they might like to kill you.

Be very polite about it. And don't forget to smile.


Well, just a suggestion. In any case, good luck.


P.S. Over many decades of new car purchases, I've never put down a deposit of more than $100. And now, I put it on a credit card, which I can get a refund for via a "charge back" from the credit card company in case the dealer tries to keep my money should our deal fall through. In the future, I suggest that you and others do the same; it's good protection. The car dealer will often insist on $500 or $1000 or whatever. They want you committed. Just say, "I'd REALLY RATHER..." And they'll take your $100, you'll see.

You know how that goes now, right?

[FRSNewb]

Originally Posted by Porsche

That is strange, I must say.

As I understand you, this auto dealership had you sign a bill of sale, a binding contract, to purchase a USED CAR that was unavailable for you to examine and test drive.

An order-out NEW car is one thing, but a USED CAR?!

And then they misled and deceived you about what they had you sign?

Now, if this used car had been on the premises, available for you to examine and test drive before signing a bill of sale, that would be reasonable for them to expect you to buy it.

Still, I wouldn't think they could force you to complete the purchase against your will. They do have your deposit, though.

It's not really a done deal until you sign ALL of the paperwork and actually drive the car off the premises. Then it's yours.

Hence you see my complaint; it's illogical for me as a customer to buy something without never seeing it. It was only last week it actually arrived at the dealership, 2 weeks after I 'bought' the car. There's zero chance for me to even look over the car to ensure everything is up to snuff.

They can't force me to take the car, I can refuse delivery of the vehicle but then risk paying expenses to the dealership itself (how much I don't know)

Originally Posted by Porsche

If you have a Small Claims court in Canada as we have in the USA, you might wish to avail yourself of their services. I'd think a judge would rule in your favor in this case.

A happier ending, given that you still want an FR-S, would be to buy a new FR-S from this dealer with the downpayment applying to the new car purchase. Maybe they might charge you a small fee for transporting the used car from the other dealership. In the USA dealers typically employ older retired folks to drive cars around in dealer trades.

So, maybe you pay them $50 for the gas and hourly wage for the driver.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that they're motivated by any sense of "fairness." That's unlikely.

Without knowing any further details, my suggestion is that you present your case about being deceived on the bill of sale, say that you've since changed your mind, and then keep repeating "I'd really rather..."

And fill in the blank about what you'd really rather do and buy, such as a new FR-S, for example, applying your deposit on the former car towards the new car purchase.

"I've changed my mind. I'd really rather apply my deposit towards a NEW FR-S."

No matter what they say, don't argue with them. Just keep repeating the above two sentences.

They'll say, "Yeah, but you agreed to buy..."

And you say, "I've changed my mind. I'd really rather apply my deposit towards a NEW FR-S."

Keep mindlessly repeating that until you think they might like to kill you.

Be very polite about it. And don't forget to smile.


Well, just a suggestion. In any case, good luck.


P.S. Over many decades of new car purchases, I've never put down a deposit of more than $100. And now, I put it on a credit card, which I can get a refund for via a "charge back" from the credit card company in case the dealer tries to keep my money should our deal fall through. In the future, I suggest that you and others do the same; it's good protection. The car dealer will often insist on $500 or $1000 or whatever. They want you committed. Just say, "I'd REALLY RATHER..." And they'll take your $100, you'll see.

You know how that goes now, right?

I'll keep that in mind about wanting a new vehicle (and potentially annoying them with your 'I'd much rather' statement until I get what I want), given that they're charging me the same price for a brand new 2014 for a used 2013.

Overall hoping for a positive outcome tomorrow. Dealers work off referrals and returning customers so I assume they're going to want to do what they can to ensure I leave a happy customer whose going to tell all their friends and family to buy cars from them, in addition to getting their vehicles serviced at the dealer. Thanks everyone for your comments/suggestions, I'll update tomorrow!

[J_kennington]

Originally Posted by FRSNewb

Hence you see my complaint; it's illogical for me as a customer to buy something without never seeing it. It was only last week it actually arrived at the dealership, 2 weeks after I 'bought' the car. There's zero chance for me to even look over the car to ensure everything is up to snuff.

They can't force me to take the car, I can refuse delivery of the vehicle but then risk paying expenses to the dealership itself (how much I don't know)



I'll keep that in mind about wanting a new vehicle (and potentially annoying them with your 'I'd much rather' statement until I get what I want), given that they're charging me the same price for a brand new 2014 for a used 2013.

Overall hoping for a positive outcome tomorrow. Dealers work off referrals and returning customers so I assume they're going to want to do what they can to ensure I leave a happy customer whose going to tell all their friends and family to buy cars from them, in addition to getting their vehicles serviced at the dealer. Thanks everyone for your comments/suggestions, I'll update tomorrow!

If they do try and make you pay for having them ship the car...you made a deposit...deposit...can go for that.

[FRSNewb]

I talked things over with the dealer and today I finally got it...wasn't too happy with how things panned out but overall just happy I got the car. Things would have been way more complicated if I were to back out of the deal.


The silver neon in the back is my other car...now winter car...