These cars are fast

[Sirsimon]

Originally Posted by forzajuve

The entire point of this car is for it to be the best tuner friendly car this side of the millennium. For people who do have and do not have an 86, saying "not powerful enough, not fast enough, etc." are completely moronic. The 86 stock, is great. If a stock 86 isn't good enough for you, well it is the perfect starting benchmark to add more power and performance. Its sort of like building your own computer.

^ Well stated. :-)

[mmsracing]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

For reference, a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 does 0-60 in 3.9 seconds.

Think it could catch our cars on the track?

it would on the long straight aways

[regal]

Originally Posted by FRSapex

Exactly - I've had a BMW 2002(1974) and four Datsun 240Zs - loved them all.
It's all about harmony.

And you could beat on those cars, they stood up to anything

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by FRSapex

Exactly - I've had a BMW 2002(1974) and four Datsun 240Zs - loved them all.
It's all about harmony.

Not only that, it addresses a neglected market niche.

I learned to drive in MGs, and my first car was a Triumph TR6. When these cars were first introduced, you really only had two choices if you wanted a performance car: Either you got a big, heavy muscle car that could hurl you forward at high speed in a straight line, or you spent a couple years' salary on a sports car that could actually take a corner without rolling on its side. That left a big market gap full of people who wanted something fun to drive but didn't need 400 cubic inches of mayhem under the hood and couldn't afford the cars they saw James Bond driving at the movies.

The Brits, Japanese and Italians stepped up to fill that niche. In 1970 you could buy an MGB for $3K, which is about $17K in today's dollars. You can't get the sticker price that low on today's performance cars because of all the added safety regulations and "standard" features we didn't have back then. Those cars weren't all that fast out of the factory, but you could make them fast if you were willing to tinker with them and spend a little more money. In my family we built a couple of real monsters out of an MGB and a Triumph TR6.

This car reminds me of those. It's a relatively inexpensive performance vehicle that can be a daily driver right off the lot or a starting platform for building a monster. Or anywhere in between. And when you finish, it's truly yours, because it's not exactly like anybody else's.

I think this is why Toyota and Subaru haven't been all that quick to add power and bling to this car, because to do so would almost immediately price it out of its niche. And then what would be the point, when there are already plenty of other competitors already serving the next market up?

[dem00n]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

For reference, a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 does 0-60 in 3.9 seconds.

Think it could catch our cars on the track?

Depends on the track.

Honestly i don't know.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by kh060

Ok total newbie here. So what do you guys mean when you "tune" them. I know what e85 is. So when you do that, does it still pass CA smog or does it still run on 91 gas or severe mpg loss in exchange for power? Also how do you tune and how much is it?

DANG, kh060, did anyone ever answer your question ...

Back in the day (oh here we go again ..), a "tune" or to "tune up" a car, usually involved adjusting the spark (to the plugs) and adjusting the amount of fuel and air that could enter the engine. Some considered modifying the exhaust as part of a tune.

A simple "tune up" was to replace the spark plugs, ignition points, condenser and maybe a carburetor kit install. Then adjust the points, timing and the carburetor. That was about all there was to it.

Some considered an electronic ignition, multiple carburetors and headers a part of "tuning".

Now days, the air/fuel ratio (carburetor) and spark (distributor/timing) is controlled by an onboard computer (the ECU).

So, to "a tune" a modern engine consists of adjusting the various parameters within this computer to achieve the desired engine functioning.

This is usually done by a computer program which talks to the onboard computer (ECU).

Now I'm not a "tuner" .... not since we lost the carburetors and distributors (hell, I can't even get to the spark plugs) ... so, my understanding may not be exactly correct.

Hopefully, this will give you some background and a kick start ....


humfrz

[regal]

Originally Posted by humfrz

DANG, kh060, did anyone ever answer your question ...

Back in the day (oh here we go again ..), a "tune" or to "tune up" a car, usually involved adjusting the spark (to the plugs) and adjusting the amount of fuel and air that could enter the engine. Some considered modifying the exhaust as part of a tune.

A simple "tune up" was to replace the spark plugs, ignition points, condenser and maybe a carburetor kit install. Then adjust the points, timing and the carburetor. That was about all there was to it.

Some considered an electronic ignition, multiple carburetors and headers a part of "tuning".

Now days, the air/fuel ratio (carburetor) and spark (distributor/timing) is controlled by an onboard computer (the ECU).

So, to "a tune" a modern engine consists of adjusting the various parameters within this computer to achieve the desired engine functioning.

This is usually done by a computer program which talks to the onboard computer (ECU).

Now I'm not a "tuner" .... not since we lost the carburetors and distributors (hell, I can't even get to the spark plugs) ... so, my understanding may not be exactly correct.

Hopefully, this will give you some background and a kick start ....


humfrz

Msny of us learned EFI tuningwhen it was discovered that at $10 trip to the hard ware store could set an' 86 Buick faster than a new corvette, had me buying any efi and turbobook I could find. This was before the internet so information traveled much slower. For I was very surprised to have a near 12 second car get 30mpg on the highway.


But lately it seems the internet slows things down with all the pointless fighting and spam. You have no idea how long a bit my tongue with HV and the other on in florida,

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

A lot of people just completely miss the point of this car. I chalk it up in large part to young people who have never ridden in an MGB just not having lived the history. I've been waiting a long time for a car like this.

I love hearing from older people who drive these cars and say how awesome they are.

I love these cars I find nothing I've ever driven handles quite like it and that's something.

Originally Posted by kh060

Ok total newbie here. So what do you guys mean when you "tune" them. I know what e85 is. So when you do that, does it still pass CA smog or does it still run on 91 gas or severe mpg loss in exchange for power? Also how do you tune and how much is it?

I'm using the OpenFlash tablet (search on google or here for info). TL;DR its a $500 tablet you can flash with various OTS tunes. They have a 91 tune & e85 tune.

I was on e85 last night (not pump gas, e85 is bio ethanol/corn fuel), this morning I changed to pump and it still feels great . Not as good obviously its kind of like a night & day difference, but if I was stuck with 91/93 I'd be perfectly happy with the higher MPG and little lower power loss. e85 is addictive though

Originally Posted by dem00n

It's not slow, nor fast.

Here's how the internet does 0-60's...

Sub 6, fast
Sub 4, really fast.
Sub 3, wut?

Over 6-8 seconds is mediocre speed.

Over 8 seconds is slow.

Unless you're on Youtube, only sub 3 is fast. But 99% of people never experienced such speeds. The average person gets headaches at that rate...

Originally Posted by Whitigir

That fast = WRX, or STI

Honestly, I think this is mostly it. Bunch of internet haters who don't like the car because of the numbers.

The only legitimate hate I've heard from my friends is that its not as fast as a stock WRX. While true, this has so much more to offer than a stock WRX in terms of driving involvement & dynamics. A huge difference.

(Although I haven't yet test drove a new WRX I'd love to I heard they handle great)

[Crazy Drew]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

A lot of people just completely miss the point of this car. I chalk it up in large part to young people who have never ridden in an MGB just not having lived the history. I've been waiting a long time for a car like this.

+1 although I still occasionally like to go scare the crap out of myself in a MGB GT. I was speaking with my best friend the other day about the buick/rover 215 v8 being a bucket list "must build" engine of mine... I just have way too many projects right now.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

I love hearing from older people who drive these cars and say how awesome they are.

I love these cars I find nothing I've ever driven handles quite like it and that's something.



I'm using the OpenFlash tablet (search on google or here for info). TL;DR its a $500 tablet you can flash with various OTS tunes. They have a 91 tune & e85 tune.

I was on e85 last night (not pump gas, e85 is bio ethanol/corn fuel), this morning I changed to pump and it still feels great . Not as good obviously its kind of like a night & day difference, but if I was stuck with 91/93 I'd be perfectly happy with the higher MPG and little lower power loss. e85 is addictive though





Honestly, I think this is mostly it. Bunch of internet haters who don't like the car because of the numbers.

The only legitimate hate I've heard from my friends is that its not as fast as a stock WRX. While true, this has so much more to offer than a stock WRX in terms of driving involvement & dynamics. A huge difference.

(Although I haven't yet test drove a new WRX I'd love to I heard they handle great)

I'm in this camp, and would much rather dd my frs than an WRX. But sales are a factor and I believe they can offer the car with a~240hp/180ft-lb advertises turbo package for no price increase. I think the D4-S was a blunder that prevented this from being engineered in, half way thru development.


But I do have one question when did a 6.5" 0-60 mph car not be considered fast? Just an educated guess but I think about 20 years of corvette models weren't this fast.



Semi-budget cars have quickly become a commodity and this car shakes that trend which is great, its just too bad corp. politics got in the way a bit. A little turbo done right would have made this one of those once in a life-time buys.

[Crazy Drew]

Originally Posted by regal

Semi-budget cars have quickly become a commodity and this car shakes that trend which is great, its just too bad corp. politics got in the way a bit. A little turbo done right would have made this one of those once in a life-time buys.

This car honestly almost seems "rushed" into production not allowing for time for full development. I understand toyobaru had to hurry up and get it on the market. You can't make a statement that you're going to produce a car like this and then sit on it for years and years and years.

A turbo d4s honestly probably would have put this car in the $35k+ range keeping it from being competative in the market it created.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Crazy Drew

A turbo d4s honestly probably would have put this car in the $35k+ range keeping it from being competative in the market it created.

I don't know if I agree with the $35k price. But its oviously a rushed to the market car.


Before the twins were released they started selling the FA20T, and I believe the next WRX will have the FA20T. The beautiful thing about a DIT engine is it can be setup about however is needed, IOW they could have kept the power torque enough to not need expensive upgrades to the power train(well maybe a better clutch.)




I see some corp. politics, Tada said the engine was 165 hp without DI or FI, and Toyota said it had to be D4-S. I can't blame them because it had a great track record. But notice that Subaru dropped it for their version of the DI FA20 with turbo.


Of course there are turbo kits that the aftermarket sells, but to me factory can't be beat in terms of drivability with FI. Plus the factory can do it for so much less cost




I wouldn't buy the turbo version anyway, if we or the aftermarket can reliably smooth the torque dips I prefer a smooth NA to a turbo anyway, but that's an exception. But most want a turbo with its torque in a sporty car. The decision to leave off the turbo is already starting to slow sales in EU it seems.


Believe me Toyota does not plan or want the much talked about "sports car sales drop like a rock after 3 years." Toyota goes after GM/Ford and usually wins or drops the model.


If they decide to go for a win, an Easton type pos. dis. supercharger without more than a $3k price increase could to the job. I still say if the BRZ sells for the same price as the WRX there is a hefty margin on the BRZ, they are both subarus and the wrx has a very robust awd, a turbo, and a an extra 1/2 ton of steel. Look at the BRZ there isn't much to it, very basic (thank God for the Torsen.) And the BRZ still out sold the WRX
How wouls it it sell with a proper engine? Mustang level?

[Crazy Drew]

Originally Posted by regal

I don't know if I agree with the $35k price. But its oviously a rushed to the market car.


How wouldit it sell with a proper engine? Mustang level?

IMHO cars seems to be about 10k + the price of baseline by time they add the turbo and all of the other crap to go along with it. I would have loved to purchase a turbo FRS/BRZ but we all know this isn't an option.

Also, IMHO this car probablyw woudn't have sold any better with a turbo version... it's just preception and illusion with new car sales. It doesn't have to be the best on the market in the price range, but it has to feel like it is to the buyer. Ford does a fantastic example of this with the new GT including the option to change the interior color and the stupid mustang lights coming off of the mirrrors when you open the door.

Is it a better car? Absolutely not. Does it sell better? Hell yes, Murica! I guess this boils down to "does Toyota build a car for the US or does it build it for the world" in which case I'd gladly choose a world car, but the majority of uninformed, ignorant and close minded US buyers would check out.

[kiichiro]

My drag skills suck, so let's get that outta the way

My supercharged vortech modded brz ran 14.02 and 14.1 a few times this weekend, on a testing tune. I have another tune I didn't get to run this time, but I can see there being more than another .3 seconds with a better tune and driver. That's fast, getting in the 13 range but myself, for a sports car don't consider it fast. My 60 foot says I suck, so if my 2.2 was 1.9 I guess 13.7 is respectable, but c'mon a new stock vette does much better

This with stock header, will rerun ASAP and let you know again
My new catless header is coming this week

I ended up giving away my p and l header, great product for NA but on my setup was just too hot where I live