How much would a new Supra cost ?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

No doubt this is an awesome car, but would you like to step into reality and explain why it'd be a better? Wouldn't it be "just another supercar" as well? Any idea what one of these costs?

It's as easily available to me as an LFA. There are 2 street cars. Both in museums.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

**sigh**

It is a FACT that the LFA was always supposed to be a Lexus. ...however, it was never supposed to be a Toyota (contrary to what I thought previously) and the V8 was never intended for the production model.

This is incorrect.


First some facts about the car's development and an interesting one about Toyota's F1 season.

2005 was considered Toyota's breakthrough season in F1 and also their best finish ever, 4th in constructors. Keep that date in mind. 2005.

This following quote was written in 2009. "...the brief kept changing as the project was transferred from Toyota to Lexus, where light weight became a higher priority. Chief engineer Haruhiko Tanahashi remembers why: 'We knew we had to challenge the best in terms of performance, handling, and roadholding. But under the Lexus brand, we also needed to emphasize refinement, comfort, and style. Since these elements are not exactly weight-neutral, the whole approach had to be reconsidered at a point in time when the project was already two-thirds down the road.' At that late stage, the LFA team switched to a molded-carbon-fiber unibody structure, an automated-manual gearbox, and an innovative ten cylinder engine intended to be as light an eight and as compact as a six."

Development time was nine years. So the project changed hands 2/3 of the way through. So that would have been 3 years prior to the quote. Which would have been in 2006. So the year following their best F1 season, suddenly Lexus jumps on the bandwagon. This is where a lot of my 'assumptions' came from. Less ASS now maybe? Maybe not, but whatever...

So my assumptions were that Lexus jumps on when the season looks good, wants to make it more Formula One-y but also Lexus-y. According to that quote it sounds like the CF-tub was basically mandated because they still wanted the car to be reasonably light, even after they weighed it down with luxury items. The same article also goes on to compare the 3263 lbs of the LFA to the 2975 of the F430 Scuderia, and the 3175 of the Porsche GT2, neither of which have carbon-tubs. McLaren F1, carbon tub, 6.1L V12, 2508 lbs for an example of what a lightweight supercar can be (so it's triple the price... not much difference in the manufacturing, and it's 15 years older).

As for hating the LFA? No. I feel Lexus messed around with a car that was closer to what 99% of true Toyota fans would have really wanted.

Maybe you misunderstand passionately disappointed for hate. GTR was already out, Toyota comes out with their supercar, and... not much different than any other supercar. Not much better than the GTR in fact. Slower in probably 75% of the vehicle's actual use. This coming after their LeMans failures, pulling out of the WRC (at least that was sort of on a high), sliding way down and pulling out of F1, killing the Celica, their last car with a sports heritage (minus the Corolla I guess...), creating Scion. Kick in the balls after kick in the balls after kick in the balls. I desperately wanted them to recapture their glory with the LFA, if they weren't going to do it with a Toyota new Supra (whatever the name). And I'm afraid that something along these lines will happen to the FR-S by the time we get it.



This is not hate. This is love.

PS As for that Gallardo Twin Turbo, I'm well aware of it. Probably a bit before you too. Same guy (http://www.johnreedracing.com/index.html) did the tuning on the Gallardo as well as the two Supras in the Youtube video I posted. White car is my buddy's and he won't let anyone but John touch his tune (MoTeC standalone).

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

No doubt this is an awesome car, but would you like to step into reality and explain why it'd be a better? Wouldn't it be "just another supercar" as well? Any idea what one of these costs?

On Jalopnik, there's an article bout rebuilt Porsche 962 is on sale for $775k (Porsche 962 on eBay)...

iirc in GT4, isn't GT-One cost bout 4.5m?

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Dimman

This is incorrect.


First some facts about the car's development and an interesting one about Toyota's F1 season.

2005 was considered Toyota's breakthrough season in F1 and also their best finish ever, 4th in constructors. Keep that date in mind. 2005.

This following quote was written in 2009. "...the brief kept changing as the project was transferred from Toyota to Lexus, where light weight became a higher priority. Chief engineer Haruhiko Tanahashi remembers why: 'We knew we had to challenge the best in terms of performance, handling, and roadholding. But under the Lexus brand, we also needed to emphasize refinement, comfort, and style. Since these elements are not exactly weight-neutral, the whole approach had to be reconsidered at a point in time when the project was already two-thirds down the road.' At that late stage, the LFA team switched to a molded-carbon-fiber unibody structure, an automated-manual gearbox, and an innovative ten cylinder engine intended to be as light an eight and as compact as a six."

Development time was nine years. So the project changed hands 2/3 of the way through. So that would have been 3 years prior to the quote. Which would have been in 2006. So the year following their best F1 season, suddenly Lexus jumps on the bandwagon. This is where a lot of my 'assumptions' came from. Less ASS now maybe? Maybe not, but whatever...

Care to quote your source? The project never changed hands. tjis is a misinterpretation on your part.

Here, have at;

[ichitaka05]

WTF is in the rear axle? Did they put the tranny in the rear?

Edit: Never mind, it said it there. Rear-mounted Transaxle

[Matador]

p.s. WRT the weight, the LFA still has to be a Lexus. And with 8 way power seats, 12 speaker stereo, sat-nav etc etc, it's amazing that it weighs what it does.

[Dimman]

Quote is from Automobile Dec/09. Quote within the quote is the same guy as in yours: Haruhiko Tanahashi. This is pretty hard to mis-interpret:

"Chief engineer Haruhiko Tanahashi remembers why: 'We knew we had to challenge the best in terms of performance, handling, and roadholding. But under the Lexus brand, we also needed to emphasize refinement, comfort, and style. Since these elements are not exactly weight-neutral, the whole approach had to be reconsidered at a point in time when the project was already two-thirds down the road.'"

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

p.s. WRT the weight, the LFA still has to be a Lexus. And with 8 way power seats, 12 speaker stereo, sat-nav etc etc, it's amazing that it weighs what it does.

I believe the source of my frustration is that it didn't have to be a Lexus.

[MtnDrvr86]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Quote is from Automobile Dec/09. Quote within the quote is the same guy as in yours: Haruhiko Tanahashi. This is pretty hard to mis-interpret:

"Chief engineer Haruhiko Tanahashi remembers why: 'We knew we had to challenge the best in terms of performance, handling, and roadholding. But under the Lexus brand, we also needed to emphasize refinement, comfort, and style. Since these elements are not exactly weight-neutral, the whole approach had to be reconsidered at a point in time when the project was already two-thirds down the road.'"

I dont take that as it changing hands from Toyota to Lexus, I take it more as them having to reconsider how to add and "emphasize refinement, comfort and style." Just as it says in the quote, but I guess it could be interpretted that way, depending on the context of the whole article.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MtnDrvr86

I dont take that as it changing hands from Toyota to Lexus, I take it more as them having to reconsider how to add and "emphasize refinement, comfort and style." Just as it says in the quote, but I guess it could be interpretted that way, depending on the context of the whole article.

There's more a few posts up. I can't see a company like Toyota realizing 2/3 of the way through a project that they almost forgot it was going to be a Lexus and having to add in all the Lexus stuff. This is stuff that gets done in the beginning.

[bigbcraig]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

**sigh**

Where to start? Why should you hate a car just because you will probably never get to drive or own it? Just because you can't have at it, does not mean that no one will. That does not take away from how great a car it is.

You own a Supra, and you are here, which would lead me to hypothesize that you are a Toyota fan. If anything else, you should be glad the LFA exists. Why? The lessons learnt and the tooling invested in the development and production of the LFA WILL make it's way down through the rest of Lexus/Toyota's lineup, especially when they get the sports cars rolling again.

It is a FACT that the LFA was always supposed to be a Lexus. Yes, it did begin as an Aluminum chassis car, and yes, at one point, it was powered by a modded V8, however, it was never supposed to be a Toyota (contrary to what I thought previously) and the V8 was never intended for the production model.

I do understand your frustration, but the way you deal with it doesn't really make me hold your opinion in very high regard. Because of the LFA, Toyota now knows how to produce a car that has incredible balance and road feel apart from just being able to handle really well. The 500 people that buy the LFA bought the tooling for Toyota to be able to mass produce carbon fiber at a reasonable price, in a production method that allows it to be laid in a faster time frame, and be able to be used in strategic places in the chassis for better weight distribution and cost/weight ratio.

Of course I'd love to have a $70k Supra successor now, but guess what? I think because of the LFA, when that car does come, it will be better directly because of it. I'm happy to drive the FT-86 meanwhile. Your assumption however, that the LFA was supposed to be that car is WRONG.

*Removed last paragraph because, while true, it's a different discussion*

Abso-freaking-loutely! You shouldn't be hating on a car just because you won't ever own one. Just as, for instance, no Subaru enthusiasts in their right mind would dislike Subaru's WRC team, just because the didn't get to drive the rally cars - it led to better and better WRXs.

There's a good idea to learn - for progress to go at it's fastest, there has to be expensive, highly technical projects taken on. That way, in layman's terms, really cool stuff gets R&D'd so that it can be implemented in more accessible applications in the future.

This is why some of the most successful and highly-performing automotive companies invest heavily in high-tech racing programs and build extravagant supercars. It's an investment in the future.

In short, there will always be a few people who are willing to spend a lot to have the newest and greatest, and this allows for the advancement of new/expensive/advanced technologies, paving (and paying) the path for the new technology to trickle down to the rest of the consumers.

This is why it's pretty common for hypercars to be sold 'at no profit' - it really does cost that much to develop the newest, best stuff - even if it seems like it's not that revolutionary.

--------------

Dimman - The other thing to understand about these hypercars is how well they do EVERYTHING. Sure, your Supra can out-drag a freaking Saturn V rocket, who cares? These cars perform damn near the top cars of single fields, for instance your example of drag racing, in every field, with enough luxury to satisfy someone who can afford the big check and that person's wife. And they don't need a rebuilt every 50 hours. So, remember in the back of your head, whenever you say the LFA is too slow in a straight time or the Veyron is too heavy to handle well, that they really are so much better in every way to accessible cars, that a fair comparison isn't possible.

Feel free to love your Supras, thats perfectly fine, and they are capable of some pretty impressive power - nobody's disputing that - but there's no good reason to bash other cars over and over again.

P.S. You really shouldn't've mentioned the LFA's weight... unlike making power, not one of your favorite car's strong suits

-----

Well, I haven't avoided ranting a little, hopefully I kept it short enough for some people to read.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by bigbcraig

*Removed last paragraph because, while true, it's a different discussion*

Abso-freaking-loutely! You shouldn't be hating on a car just because you won't ever own one. Just as, for instance, no Subaru enthusiasts in their right mind would dislike Subaru's WRC team, just because the didn't get to drive the rally cars - it led to better and better WRXs.

There's a good idea to learn - for progress to go at it's fastest, there has to be expensive, highly technical projects taken on. That way, in layman's terms, really cool stuff gets R&D'd so that it can be implemented in more accessible applications in the future.

This is why some of the most successful and highly-performing automotive companies invest heavily in high-tech racing programs and build extravagant supercars. It's an investment in the future.

In short, there will always be a few people who are willing to spend a lot to have the newest and greatest, and this allows for the advancement of new/expensive/advanced technologies, paving (and paying) the path for the new technology to trickle down to the rest of the consumers.

This is why it's pretty common for hypercars to be sold 'at no profit' - it really does cost that much to develop the newest, best stuff - even if it seems like it's not that revolutionary.

--------------

Dimman - The other thing to understand about these hypercars is how well they do EVERYTHING. Sure, your Supra can out-drag a freaking Saturn V rocket, who cares? These cars perform damn near the top cars of single fields, for instance your example of drag racing, in every field, with enough luxury to satisfy someone who can afford the big check and that person's wife. And they don't need a rebuilt every 50 hours. So, remember in the back of your head, whenever you say the LFA is too slow in a straight time or the Veyron is too heavy to handle well, that they really are so much better in every way to accessible cars, that a fair comparison isn't possible.

Feel free to love your Supras, thats perfectly fine, and they are capable of some pretty impressive power - nobody's disputing that - but there's no good reason to bash other cars over and over again.

P.S. You really shouldn't've mentioned the LFA's weight... unlike making power, not one of your favorite car's strong suits

-----

Well, I haven't avoided ranting a little, hopefully I kept it short enough for some people to read.

First, there is nothing earth-shatteringly new developed with this car. McLaren paved the way 15 years ago for the carbon tub. Ferrari with the automated manuals. Honda with ridiculous redline car motors. Granted maybe this fancy loom for weaving the CF might be the ticket, but Toyota's been in that game for over 100 years (weaving, not composites).

Second people are having difficulty with what I thought came across as passionate disappointment and interpret it as hate. Not so. I had super-high expectations for the LFA and don't feel they were met. Failure on my point.

(I'm a bit bitter at what I perceive as Lexus taking what would have been a sub-$80K Supra replacement and turning it into a 599 competitor.)

Third, the Supra weight thing... sheesh... You may think that's a humorous low-blow, but the reality just makes the LFA's weight even worse by contrast. I've always gone with the 1570kg curb weight for a 7MGTE 5 speed non-targa car (Mk3). I've seen this as low as 1540kg depending on your source. Keep in mind that this is for an all-steel car with a huge iron-block straight six designed 23 years ago (older than a lot of people on this board). For those of you that are conversion challenged, thats between 3388lbs and 3454lbs. This is not a super heavy pig of a car (though it may feel like that trying to turn with all that iron over the front). My car is a JDM narrow-body, targa topped, 1JZGTE 5 speed car with some pretty extensive weight reduction. I haven't put it on the scales but I would bet $50 that it's within 50 lbs of an LFA. Probably on the lighter side. But very extensive weight reduction.

Now in the LFA's defense, people haven't really gotten into the rigidity of that car. So it may only be within 125-191 lbs of its grampa, but its structural rigidity is probably many, many, magnitudes better. I don't know the whole effect this has, but compared to driving my car with the targa off and with it on, that's a whole different world when it comes to feel. Theory says it makes the suspension more precise, too.

My car is not a do-everything car but my goal is something that will run with a GTR in a straight line (without spray or crazy anti-lag launch) and on a road course. As well as being completely streetable. With only 2.5L of 20 year old tech to work with I've got my work cut out for me. However because it can't do everything, I have 2 cars. I would think that if you could afford an LFA to go fast in you could also afford an LS600h for when you wanted creature-comforts, no? (this is a joke people...)

Ranting is what the internet is for.

[vh_supra26]

To bad this bad boy never made it pass concept.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Headlights can make or break a car's 'face'. I always see them as 'eyes'. That was my only gripe with the Mk4 Supra, it looked 'sad' or 'empty' and with the grille vaguely catfish-like. Compare it to the lights of the production LFA which looks 'angry'. I would rather my performance car look pissed off than depressed.

Another tangent: The concept's rear shows some crazy aero ideas. Full tunnels, and fans to blow out more of the rear's low pressure. Sick.

The 97 & 98 headlights looks better. Or you can buy the "eye lid" and paint it to match your car.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I believe the source of my frustration is that it didn't have to be a Lexus.

Well I don't think anyone is gonna pay $375k for a Toyota.