Intake dilemma

[FrsDuke]

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50492

Read all of this thread

[JC0830]

Originally Posted by zooki

Okay, just to clarify, CAI means "Cold Air Induction". It doesn't matter where the filter is located, just where the air in pulled from. The stock intake setup? CAI. The Takeda intake? CAI. The AEM intake? CAI. The Injen intake? Not CAI. As long as the intake pulls air from outside the engine compartment(like from in front of the radiator) it is a CAI.

I must've not looked at the setup closely enough b/c I thought all three were short ram intakes since they were placed in similar locations =/

[???]

But a real CAI (air filter at bottom) will get better results. Technically, if the air is taken from down there, it's a CAI, so ur right.


For me, there is no glide in pulse and glide :p

[JC0830]

Originally Posted by ???

I forgot what dsport said but they also said that there was one of the intakes that could only generate noticeable power if you hav an EcuTek tune but I forgot which one. The article online doesn't have everything. The magazine also had each intake tuned and compared tune vs. w/o a tune for every intake. Sorry but I just saw the article sitting on the newsstand. I don't have the actual magazine.

Btw, sry for the triple post.


For me, there is no glide in pulse and glide :p

thank you for the great replies and info! if you could be so generous and enlighten me on where I can find these showcase examples? (i.e. websites/magazines)

so for some insight on my future plans...

eventually I am planning to get a full exhaust system, starting from the header. I still have to do some research on which header to choose, equal vs unequal and which company. for the exhaust, as of now I am choosing to go with the Perrin CBE. Also I am looking into the Motiv HFC (being the noob I am..I'm assuming it will fit with the Perrin CBE lol).
So according to your advice..I should get the header and exhaust first, then decide on an intake, then get it tuned. and I think I will do that. that'll probably be it for power modifications.

I am also planning to do some suspension upgrades and am still in the process of researching for it.

so what I want out of my car is to have great handling. I know it's already one of the top handling cars out there on the streets stock wise but I want it to hug the corners when I turn. so I will be focusing mostly on suspension/tires/weight reduction modifications. I do plan to take it to the track and hopefully drift around once I have enough mods. I probably won't take it to the tracks that often since this is my DD car lol but once in a while when I'm bored

in summary, I want a DD car with some power (for the highways) that can turn on a dime (for local and backroads) which I can take it to the track once in a while to have fun (aka drifting)

hope this info helps

[JC0830]

Originally Posted by ???

But a real CAI (air filter at bottom) will get better results. Technically, if the air is taken from down there, it's a CAI, so ur right.


For me, there is no glide in pulse and glide :p

true..but I haven't seen anyone produce that type of design yet for the brz =/ and plus there's the issue of water for those types of design. so that's why I was considering to opt for the short ram intake with a heat shield or a box cover.

[???]

Originally Posted by JC0830

thank you for the great replies and info! if you could be so generous and enlighten me on where I can find these showcase examples? (i.e. websites/magazines)

so for some insight on my future plans...

eventually I am planning to get a full exhaust system, starting from the header. I still have to do some research on which header to choose, equal vs unequal and which company. for the exhaust, as of now I am choosing to go with the Perrin CBE. Also I am looking into the Motiv HFC (being the noob I am..I'm assuming it will fit with the Perrin CBE lol).
So according to your advice..I should get the header and exhaust first, then decide on an intake, then get it tuned. and I think I will do that. that'll probably be it for power modifications.

I am also planning to do some suspension upgrades and am still in the process of researching for it.

so what I want out of my car is to have great handling. I know it's already one of the top handling cars out there on the streets stock wise but I want it to hug the corners when I turn. so I will be focusing mostly on suspension/tires/weight reduction modifications. I do plan to take it to the track and hopefully drift around once I have enough mods. I probably won't take it to the tracks that often since this is my DD car lol but once in a while when I'm bored

in summary, I want a DD car with some power (for the highways) that can turn on a dime (for local and backroads) which I can take it to the track once in a while to have fun (aka drifting)

hope this info helps

The showcases were on dsport magazine. You can find them on their website or go to their YouTube channel and watch the videos. Remember though, for the intake showcase, they only rated peak power.

I like the idea of the full exhaust. We think alike

I strongly recommend the FT86SpeedFactory UEL header. It's hard to determine which design is superior when you compare EL and UEL. If you compare a knock-off EL that was made in China to the FT86SF header, UEL is waaaaaay better and vice versa. You also have to determine if you want a cat (catalytic converter) in your header. This catches some of the crap that comes out of the engine so that it doesn't pollute so much. Depending on your tune and fuel, it can get ruined, but that takes a while. It usually makes the exhaust note less raspy, it makes it quieter, it's extra weight, and it robs horsepower. I wouldn't ever run a cat if I upgraded a header. Some states like California test your vehicles emissions, so you would need a clean emissions system an engine that runs good to pass the test and not get any fines. I don't live there, and my state doesn't do that test, so although your aren't supposed to take it out, no one will give you crap for taking it out if you're in Florida.

By the way, all if not most aftermarket exhaust parts will fit together. Why do you want a high-flow cat?

If you're on a budget and want some power now, get the FT86SF header and tune it. You will eliminate the torque dip, not increase noise, get that badass UEL sound, get sound when you want it without drone, get rid of the bipolar ECU, and gain a reliable 20whp without sacrificing a noticeable amount of fuel economy. If anything, it'll go up.

The Perrin CBE is not super loud or quiet. If you end up getting a full exhaust and you're worried about noise, all you have to do is pick a quiet CBE. One example is the Invidia N1. It's a great exhaust, and it's a little on the louder side. The Invidia Q300 is the exact same exhaust, but it has a different muffler. Even with a full, catless exhaust, you will not experience drone with a CBE like that. Go to FT86SF's channel to check out the header with a stock and full exhaust and some other exhaust sound clips.

For suspension upgrades, it depends on your budget. Here is what I recommend:

Really cheap: eibach lowering springs (sportline is stiffer and gives you better handling. Pro kit is softer, gives you a more comfortable ride.) This will lower the car 1.4 inches. The springs are also slightly stiffer than stock. They cost around $250. The springs still keep the same ride quality as stock according to reviews
Cheap: Eibach sportline/pro PLUS kit. This is the springs, front and rear sway bars, and the bushings for the sway bars. It's around $400.
Average: Tein coilovers (anywhere from $900-$1k+) this is signifca toy stiffer, you can adjust the damper, you can adjust the amount that you lower the car, and deepening on how much you spend, you can adjust more. There are some affordable 36-way adjustable ones. Excellent choice. It'll drop that car anywhere from .5-4 inches. I strongly recommend sway bars which will be another $200 (Eibach)
Expensive: KW V3 coilovers. ($2300 or something) AWESOME COILOVERS!!! Some of the best on the market. Stiffer spring rate that results in better response, feel, and cornering ability, a lot of adjustment, so you don't have to lose much ride quality at all. I can go on and on, but these coilovers are just awesome. I recommend sway bars too.

Additional:

Wheels and tires on this car is a must!!! For some bang for the buck, I recommend Enkei RPF1. Not a great looking wheel, but they are super strong, and high quality at a relatively low price for that type of wheel. I recommend the size 18x9 or 18x9.5. That should fit on a 245/35/18 tire with no problems with rubbing against the car or anything like that. One of the very best tires money can buy is the Michelin Pilot Super Sports. The wheels will help the car turn easier, accelerate faster, gain whp, etc because it's rotational mass. The car comes with terrible tires, so any high performance summer tire will completely change the car for the better. Go to tirerack.com.

If you want to drift at least some of those suspension mods are super helpful. You're also gonna want rotors and pads. If you want to save money, go to FT86SpeedFactory.com, and look at their brake packages (Not the big brake kits). If not, get the rotors you want, pads for the front and rear, brake fluid, and stainless steel lines. I recommend Hawk HP+ pads. Another good mod is the master cylinder brace. It enhances the feel of the brake pedal and it's only $100. You might also want to adjust the E-brake to your liking.

Other mods:

When you get your exhaust parts, I recommend that you wrap them in heat wrap. This makes the exhaust hotter, making the exhaust flow better and fast, and it insulates the pipe, keeping heat away from the air intake and stuff. Get DEI titanium heat wrap with LF technology or whatever it's called. Simple, cheap mod.

Our cars runs hot, so I strongly suggest that you get a radiator and oil cooler from mishimoto.

You might want to lower rotational mass with a crank pulley, driveshaft, and flywheel. This increases throttle response and horsepower.

You may also want to consider little things like a shifter bushing, short shifter, shift springs, or transmission mount from whiteline, Perrin, kartboy, MTEC, etc to just make the car feel more fun. The shift knob even makes a big performance and aesthetic difference. Heavier shift knobs can just be slapped into gear, and shorter ones can help you feel the transmission. The stock one may be fine for you though.

You might also want to think about aesthetics like winjet headlights, shark fin antenna clear side markers, a body kit, 5:AD spoiler, diode dynamics led kit, toms tailights etc. Doing some work to areodynamics is a good idea too. Although the Rexspeed body kit is a little pricey, it's functional, subtle, and good looking. It lowers drag (air resistance) and increases downforce (the force of air pushing the car down. It gives you stability.) the driveway labs diffuser is also cool and functional in the same way. It might not fit very exhaust though. The OEM diffuser is cool too but not functional. Check out the My interior Redesign thread to see some cool stuff. I suggest that you get the OEM armrest too. You might also want to upgrade the stereo. Go to crutchfield.com to learn all about that.

Window tint

With all that, you're gonna want an alarm!!! Clifford makes some of the best stuff out there. Check out their website.

Note: I had a lot of ideas when I wrote this, so I probably forgot a lot. Sort about that. I'll reread it and add something if I remember .

BEST OF LICK!!!


For me, there is no glide in pulse and glide :p

[zooki]

Originally Posted by ???

But a real CAI (air filter at bottom) will get better results. Technically, if the air is taken from down there, it's a CAI, so ur right.


For me, there is no glide in pulse and glide :p

I don't know why the location of the filter media would make a difference. Is the stock intake that pulls air through the snorkel a "fake" CAI? Even though the opening of the snorkel and the spot where the filter sits on Perrin's CAI are in the exact same place? ANY intake that pulls air from outside the engine compartment is a CAI. You don't want the air inlet too low either. I would rather have the air pulled from higher up, as air closer to the pavement is usually a higher temperature due to the pavement heating it up.

[???]

Originally Posted by zooki

I don't know why the location of the filter media would make a difference. Is the stock intake that pulls air through the snorkel a "fake" CAI? Even though the opening of the snorkel and the spot where the filter sits on Perrin's CAI are in the exact same place? ANY intake that pulls air from outside the engine compartment is a CAI. You don't want the air inlet too low either. I would rather have the air pulled from higher up, as air closer to the pavement is usually a higher temperature due to the pavement heating it up.

The Perrin CAI is more of a real CAI than the stock one. The snorkel design is a restriction on the stock one which is one reason why it doesn't perform as well. Having the actual filter there would make it a real CAI. The stock one is technically a partial CAI. A manufacturer would never put a real CAI on a car because they would spend too much money fixing hydro locked engines. The snorkel position is pretty O.K. For a stock intake which is one reason why I said the stock intake isn't bad; it can be improved. Technically, you are right, but when I say fake or real I mean that the stock "semi-CAI" won't give you the best results, and it's not just because of a stock part. The whole thing needs little adjustments.


For me, there is no glide in pulse and glide :p

[zooki]

Originally Posted by ???

The Perrin CAI is more of a real CAI than the stock one

In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[???]

For it to be considered a CAI the filter element needs to be down there like the Perrin unit. Like I said, TECHNICALLY, you are right; the stock one is a CAI. Is say that it's more of a semi-CAI because of common sense and the placement of the filter and snorkel. A manufacturer wouldn't put a true CAI on any of their cars because they would be spending way to much money on warranty claims, and it lowers fuel economy.

I'm never really cocky or arrogant or something, but I think I might know just a little more than you at least on this topic based on my posts vs. yours. Don't mean to be rude though.


For me, there is no glide in pulse and glide :p

[FrsDuke]

Writing a lot and knowing a lot are two different things. I've seen several statements in your posts that I disagree with based on testing from grimmspeed and the first hand tuning accounts of other members. I'm too lazy and disinterested to go through and point out the problems. You are a false authority, and I know you are trying to help, but I don't think you are. Reading a dsport article doesn't make you an expert anymore than reading all the crap I've read makes me an expert.

[???]

Originally Posted by FrsDuke

Writing a lot and knowing a lot are two different things. I've seen several statements in your posts that I disagree with based on testing from grimmspeed and the first hand tuning accounts of other members. I'm too lazy and disinterested to go through and point out the problems. You are a false authority, and I know you are trying to help, but I don't think you are. Reading a dsport article doesn't make you an expert anymore than reading all the crap I've read makes me an expert.

You do make a good point. I can write everything I want, and it doesn't mean I know a lot. Id say my last post was a little bit aggressive, but I think I do know what I'm talking about. By the way, I didn't really mean to start some kind of argument. That's not the point of the thread. The point was for the OP to determine which intake is best for him or her. You say that you disagree with some of the points I made. That doesn't mean I'm wrong, but I might be. Can you please tell me what you disagree with? I might be wrong, I don't want to post bad information. The reason I'm here is to inform or to be informed for the most part. Also, the way you worded your post kinda rubbed me the wrong way. My only source wasn't the dsport article. I just mentioned that because I saw it, and I thought OP wanted to see it. Yes, I am trying to help, and I think I have. Again, if you can correct me, please do. I want to be educated and then educate others.

On the other hand, what I meant by CAI was the aftermarket. Yes, the stock intake is a CAI, but it can be improved. (@zooki you're right).


For me, there is no glide in pulse and glide :p

[FrsDuke]

Originally Posted by ???

The intake tube is only part. The air intake replaces everything and when u add a tune to the mix ur looking at at least double the power of an intake hose and drop in filter.

I dunno where you got the intake is worth double the power from a tune info, but it's simply not the case. The bone stock car gains around 15 whp from a tune and another 5 or so with a drop in. These numbers are very similar to those from a full intake. The intake itself is generally worth 5-10 untuned (by leaning it out) and 5-10 more tuned so the net gain is negligible.

Originally Posted by ???

The K&N drop in is still the best bang for the buck. 4-5 whp for around $100. Don't do the filter and intake tube because for around the same money, you can just get a whole intake from Takeda and get better gains. If I were you, I wouldn't want to wait for grim speed to release their product, but I probably would. I would definitely get a tune from EcuTek too.

K&N is $40
Open Flash Tablet is $500 with free off the shelf tunes which are not locked and continue to be updated and improved. Also people are already sharing user tunes with each other for specific mods or climate requirements. This will only continue to grow and foster better tunes.

Originally Posted by ???

(this car's ecu is said to be bipolar meaning that it only performs well from the factory when it wants to. It depends on the weather conditions which is part of why people can baseline anywhere from 155whp to 175 whp.) if you just upgrade the header, get a wideband o2 sensor and take it to your local EcuTek tuner. A full exhaust and tune will run you around $3000 and will net you gains of 35whp EASILY. The intake will get you 5-6whp for $300-$40" and a tune and an intake will be a little over $1000 and will net you gains of around 12-15whp. If you are limited on money and just want to modify your car very simply, cheaply, and gain 5 horses, go with the drop in filter. That does not require a tune, but if you go with the whole intake, I would recommend it. You might just want to have it tuned without upgrading the intake and get an easy 10 horses for $750. I can't tell you what to do because it's your car, I don't know your budget, and I don't know what you use it for. It would help if you gave me a little more info.

The vast majority of people are seeing numbers consistently around 170 whp on dynojets. The majority of the variance early on was due to different dyno's using different corrections in different conditions and not understanding the ramifications of improperly resetting the ECU for a dyno pull. A car with a .7IAM vs 1IAM. Generally speaking the car is amazingly consistent from the factory.

Originally Posted by ???

Why do you want a high-flow cat?

The cats are the single largest restriction in the exhaust. Particularly the header cat as it limits runner length and collector design/space.

Originally Posted by ???

If you end up getting a full exhaust and you're worried about noise, all you have to do is pick a quiet CBE. One example is the Invidia N1. It's a great exhaust, and it's a little on the louder side. The Invidia Q300 is the exact same exhaust, but it has a different muffler. Even with a full, catless exhaust, you will not experience drone with a CBE like that. Go to FT86SF's channel to check out the header with a stock and full exhaust and some other exhaust sound clips.

The N1 and Q300 have the same midpipe but are completely different from the axle back (two tubes N1 vs suitcase q300) The N1 is NOT quiet, but it does not drone. The Q300 is quiet and no drone. I thought you were a little ambiguous there.

Originally Posted by ???

Additional:

Wheels and tires on this car is a must!!! For some bang for the buck, I recommend Enkei RPF1. Not a great looking wheel, but they are super strong, and high quality at a relatively low price for that type of wheel. I recommend the size 18x9 or 18x9.5. That should fit on a 245/35/18 tire with no problems with rubbing against the car or anything like that. One of the very best tires money can buy is the Michelin Pilot Super Sports. The wheels will help the car turn easier, accelerate faster, gain whp, etc because it's rotational mass. The car comes with terrible tires, so any high performance summer tire will completely change the car for the better. Go to tirerack.com.

If you want to drift at least some of those suspension mods are super helpful. You're also gonna want rotors and pads. If you want to save money, go to FT86SpeedFactory.com, and look at their brake packages (Not the big brake kits). If not, get the rotors you want, pads for the front and rear, brake fluid, and stainless steel lines. I recommend Hawk HP+ pads. Another good mod is the master cylinder brace. It enhances the feel of the brake pedal and it's only $100. You might also want to adjust the E-brake to your liking.

Other mods:

When you get your exhaust parts, I recommend that you wrap them in heat wrap. This makes the exhaust hotter, making the exhaust flow better and fast, and it insulates the pipe, keeping heat away from the air intake and stuff. Get DEI titanium heat wrap with LF technology or whatever it's called. Simple, cheap mod.

Our cars runs hot, so I strongly suggest that you get a radiator and oil cooler from mishimoto.

You might want to lower rotational mass with a crank pulley, driveshaft, and flywheel. This increases throttle response and horsepower.

You may also want to consider little things like a shifter bushing, short shifter, shift springs, or transmission mount from whiteline, Perrin, kartboy, MTEC, etc to just make the car feel more fun. The shift knob even makes a big performance and aesthetic difference. Heavier shift knobs can just be slapped into gear, and shorter ones can help you feel the transmission. The stock one may be fine for you though.

You might also want to think about aesthetics like winjet headlights, shark fin antenna clear side markers, a body kit, 5:AD spoiler, diode dynamics led kit, toms tailights etc. Doing some work to areodynamics is a good idea too. Although the Rexspeed body kit is a little pricey, it's functional, subtle, and good looking. It lowers drag (air resistance) and increases downforce (the force of air pushing the car down. It gives you stability.) the driveway labs diffuser is also cool and functional in the same way. It might not fit very exhaust though. The OEM diffuser is cool too but not functional. Check out the My interior Redesign thread to see some cool stuff. I suggest that you get the OEM armrest too. You might also want to upgrade the stereo. Go to crutchfield.com to learn all about that.

Window tint

With all that, you're gonna want an alarm!!! Clifford makes some of the best stuff out there. Check out their website.

Note: I had a lot of ideas when I wrote this, so I probably forgot a lot. Sort about that. I'll reread it and add something if I remember .

BEST OF LICK!!!

While helpful and informative this stuff isn't related to the topic at hand, not a complaint just saying.

Originally Posted by ???

The Perrin CAI is more of a real CAI than the stock one. The snorkel design is a restriction on the stock one which is one reason why it doesn't perform as well. Having the actual filter there would make it a real CAI. The stock one is technically a partial CAI. A manufacturer would never put a real CAI on a car because they would spend too much money fixing hydro locked engines. The snorkel position is pretty O.K. For a stock intake which is one reason why I said the stock intake isn't bad; it can be improved. Technically, you are right, but when I say fake or real I mean that the stock "semi-CAI" won't give you the best results, and it's not just because of a stock part. The whole thing needs little adjustments.

Grimmspeed found the snorkel helped to produce power and helped fix air fuel ratios while dyno testing. Chase hypothesized this was due to it spreading the air flow more evenly across the filter element. In his thread about checking restrictions in the stock intake system he found the snorkel to produce no restriction whatsoever. The intake tube after the maf also produced no meaningful restriction. The only meaningful restrictions in the stock system was the paper filter, and the transition from the filter box to the maf tube.
Their design is our best hope in my opinion because they focused on keeping their design consistent/accurate for the maf reading while enabling slightly more flow. They do this by using a cone filter with a velocity stack, air straighteners for the maf, the stock snorkel (or modified one) and who knows what else at this point as they are being hush hush about some of it.

Again, Your intentions are undeniably good, but some slight misinformation on your part has lead to some incorrect conclusions in my opinion.
You seem to believe a full intake is worth while.
I can not speak to the value of the TRD intake as I haven't seen any solid testing of it that I trust. I also do not have much of an opinion on the perrin 2.5" system for the same reasons. I doubt they bring anything special to the table. Of all the available intakes right now the TRD is the only one I would consider because it has a Toyota warranty.
I don't think 1-5 hp at the expense of inaccurate MAF readings (causing lean conditions at WOT and idle issues and engine codes) for an extra $200 is a good value compared to a drop in filter, 30 minutes with a dremel tool, and zero driveability issues.

I really hope the Grimmspeed solution is as good as it appears, but I don't expect more than a 5 HP gain over a drop in. That is about as far as the intake can be pushed on this car. What they will do differently is make it safe, driveable, easy to tune, and PROVEN to perform.

Once intake manifolds and high RPM valve train goodies start hitting the market there will be more gains to be had out of the SUCK side of the engine but not until then.

Hope that all came off as I intended it. Again, I think you're trying hard to be an asset to the community and help people which is fantastic. I just want the same thing with the best information.

Wish someone would start an intake sticky.

[SirBrass]

You could go with a drop-in panel filter or an airraid intake. The Airraid intake won't require any tuning, either, actually (they did their homework on MAF placement).