Why BBK for front only

[mrk1]

And to add why I purchased the 328 StopTech kit off the bat is because I have spent lots of money on my previous cars playing with pads and rotors and no matter what it comes down to the heat capacity in the setup so I wanted to just simplify this time around.

I also just love brakes.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by yomny

So its just braking performance increase by dissipating more heat and having more mass for friction? So the more pistons the kit has doesn't necessarily translate into more pressure/force or bite, just the force being applied over a greater contact area?

So in reality most cars out there or car owner's wallets could benefit from simply upgrading the front braking system to a BBK, as in reality the rears are sufficient for most applications. For future reference then it'll be same to assume a good front kit with maybe upgraded rear pads for the rear would suffice most of the needs of a beginner to intermidiate skilled level driver participating in HPDEs? I'll stick to the basics now, since oem power could be dealt with OEM equipment(not pads). I've been looking at some of the brake cooling solutions offered by touge factory or the APR cooling kit and they look pretty good.

You're not increasing performance. Rather, you're reducing/eliminating performance degradation.

Brake pad fade, and boiling the fluid are performance degradations, and you're mitigating/reducing/eliminating that with a BBK (hopefully).

Likewise, better pads and fluid can also reduce/eliminate degradation, but only to a degree. A BBK does it more effectively.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by yomny

So its just braking performance increase by dissipating more heat and having more mass for friction? So the more pistons the kit has doesn't necessarily translate into more pressure/force or bite, just the force being applied over a greater contact area?

So in reality most cars out there or car owner's wallets could benefit from simply upgrading the front braking system to a BBK, as in reality the rears are sufficient for most applications. For future reference then it'll be same to assume a good front kit with maybe upgraded rear pads for the rear would suffice most of the needs of a beginner to intermidiate skilled level driver participating in HPDEs? I'll stick to the basics now, since oem power could be dealt with OEM equipment(not pads). I've been looking at some of the brake cooling solutions offered by touge factory or the APR cooling kit and they look pretty good.

When it comes to BBKs and their effect on brake power (and balance), piston area and rotor diameter are what's important. A 6 piston kit may or may not have more piston area than a 4 piston kit. It'll be using 3 smaller pistons per side. More pistons is slightly improves feel and helps the pad wear more evenly, but a lot of the time it's to brag to your friends.

- Andy

[yomny]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

When it comes to BBKs and their effect on brake power (and balance), piston area and rotor diameter are what's important. A 6 piston kit may or may not have more piston area than a 4 piston kit. It'll be using 3 smaller pistons per side. More pistons is slightly improves feel and helps the pad wear more evenly, but a lot of the time it's to brag to your friends.

- Andy

Makes a lot more sense now. Thanks a lot.

[yomny]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You're not increasing performance. Rather, you're reducing/eliminating performance degradation.

Brake pad fade, and boiling the fluid are performance degradations, and you're mitigating/reducing/eliminating that with a BBK (hopefully).

Likewise, better pads and fluid can also reduce/eliminate degradation, but only to a degree. A BBK does it more effectively.

So its not to really "do" more of anything but to prevent certain things from happening the way to increase performance

[enwave]

Originally Posted by fatoni

im fairly certain that weight transfer causes suspension compression and not the other way around so the weight transfer is happening regardless

Absolutely! My point was that you can prevent some compression with stronger springs, which can push some of that weight back in a different way. That's why I only said "some" of that weight transfer. I should have also added "at some points during braking"


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[mrk1]

Originally Posted by yomny

So its not to really "do" more of anything but to prevent certain things from happening the way to increase performance

Your stock brakes will do a just fine job of stopping the car from speed once, the problem is when you ask them to do it again and again. The heat over whelms them.

Aftermarket big brake kits are able to tolerate and dissipate the heat better.

An example is my M3, it has the usual mild pad/rotor upgrade. When I go out there is a lap or two of warm up, then a bunch of laps around at speed within there temperature tolerance. Once they begin to over heat I have to do a few slower laps to let them cool down. Usually by then the season is over but if the brakes had the ability to tolerate that heat I wouldn't need the cool down laps and could continue lapping at speed.

Keep in mind that it took me a bunch of track days of learning to be able to lap constantly fast enough to over heat the brakes on that car. If your looking to do track days stockers will do just fine in the beginning. If anything having brakes over heat a bit on you is a good learning tool because you learn to feel them fall off and when to back off.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by yomny

So its just braking performance increase by dissipating more heat and having more mass for friction? So the more pistons the kit has doesn't necessarily translate into more pressure/force or bite, just the force being applied over a greater contact area?

So in reality most cars out there or car owner's wallets could benefit from simply upgrading the front braking system to a BBK, as in reality the rears are sufficient for most applications. For future reference then it'll be same to assume a good front kit with maybe upgraded rear pads for the rear would suffice most of the needs of a beginner to intermidiate skilled level driver participating in HPDEs? I'll stick to the basics now, since oem power could be dealt with OEM equipment(not pads). I've been looking at some of the brake cooling solutions offered by touge factory or the APR cooling kit and they look pretty good.

The Toque Factory kit is much better. You want the heat directed to the center of the rotor, not just pointed in the direction of the brakes. AFAIK the TF kit is the only solution that efficiently directs air to where it needs to be.

For this car, the front kits (if reasonably sized and engineered) are all you need. For my track car you can get by with just a front upgrade if reasonable, but I have done both front and rear on that car because I wanted more rear bite as the car would rotate under braking because of bias issues.

The BRZ on the other hand is very stable with the OEM rears and Essex front kit, same with OEM all around.

Most people install a BBK for one of two reasons:
1. Looks.
2. Because they need more heat capacity on track to reduce/eliminate fade.

Both reasons are valid, so long as everyone understands that their car isn't going to stop 20 feet shorter just because of a BBK, and depending on what components are selected could actually experience worse braking.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by mrk1

Your stock brakes will do a just fine job of stopping the car from speed once, the problem is when you ask them to do it again and again. The heat over whelms them.

Aftermarket big brake kits are able to tolerate and dissipate the heat better.

An example is my M3, it has the usual mild pad/rotor upgrade. When I go out there is a lap or two of warm up, then a bunch of laps around at speed within there temperature tolerance. Once they begin to over heat I have to do a few slower laps to let them cool down. Usually by then the season is over but if the brakes had the ability to tolerate that heat I wouldn't need the cool down laps and could continue lapping at speed.

Keep in mind that it took me a bunch of track days of learning to be able to lap constantly fast enough to over heat the brakes on that car. If your looking to do track days stockers will do just fine in the beginning. If anything having brakes over heat a bit on you is a good learning tool because you learn to feel them fall off and when to back off.

The actual OEM rotors are shit. Aftermarket replacements seem better. I may have been the first to "delaminate" the surface from some but I've since seen a few sets at the track with similar wear. Here are my original rotors after 3 track days: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=156

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by yomny

So its not to really "do" more of anything but to prevent certain things from happening the way to increase performance

The goal of increasing thermal mass (within reason - you'll note that I keep mentioning that because too much is also bad) is to reduce fade caused by high brake temps. If the rotors can't handle the heat, or can't remove the heat, then the pads can overheat (glazing, resulting in pad fade) and the fluid can overheat (boiling, resulting in fluid fade). Additionally the rotors will experience a greatly reduced service time because they will severely crack (all of the rotors will have expansion cracking, that's no big deal) and become throwaways. Ask S2000 drivers about that

In my opinion you want only as much thermal capacity as you absolutely need. Anything more slows you down, anything less causes you to have fade. Finding that balance isn't always easy.

[enwave]

Let's also point out that different drivers have different needs when it comes to thermal capacity. Dave, likely being a more skilled driver than me, may reach thermal capacity on one brake set that I wouldn't be able to, if he is braking harder and tighter and hitting his spots right.

If I'm a pansy and brake sooner and lighter, I don't need as much thermal capacity.


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[mrk1]

Originally Posted by enwave

Let's also point out that different drivers have different needs when it comes to thermal capacity. Dave, likely being a more skilled driver than me, may reach thermal capacity on one brake set that I wouldn't be able to, if he is braking harder and tighter and hitting his spots right.

If I'm a pansy and brake sooner and lighter, I don't need as much thermal capacity.


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Actually dragging your brakes for longer is worse then a quick harder burst. But yes its a good point I tried to bring up earlier, some people may not be fast enough in the beginning to really push the limit.

[raul]

Originally Posted by mrk1

Actually dragging your brakes for longer is worse then a quick harder burst. But yes its a good point I tried to bring up earlier, some people may not be fast enough in the beginning to really push the limit.

This ^

Shortening the amount of time on the brakes allows the rotors to cool for longer spans of time.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by enwave

Absolutely! My point was that you can prevent some compression with stronger springs, which can push some of that weight back in a different way. That's why I only said "some" of that weight transfer. I should have also added "at some points during braking"


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While you get less compressoin travel, the total load doesn't change. The travel decreases because the springs take more force to compress a given amount.