BRZ/FR-S Vs. Civic SI

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

For someone with almost no actual car experience like me, there is so much RWD hype that I can't help but want RWD :P If it means paying more, I'm sure I'll convince myself that it's better even if I can't tell the difference

Because donuts?

Seriously though sometimes a nice controlled drift in a RWD car makes you feel like a driving god.

However the same thing can make new drivers shit their pants and spin out.

[KevinDuMa]

Not gonna lie if the BRZ get's out of my price range I'm going to have to see if the 2013 Si will be better than the 12, and if not I'll be looking into a used one. Civic Si is my second car of choice though.

[neveronlinefrs]

I owned a Civic SI and I would not consider getting another one unless a supercharger or Gears (FD) was on order the first gear is horrible it feels long as hell like your never going to shift. The car does corner well for a FWD car without too much oversteer (with summer tires). I have owned many FWD cars and I have ownd RWD and AWD cars and if you think FWD and RWD feels the same you arent really driving the car they feel completely different and react differently at speed. If your just driving around town and going to meets and shows then yeah theres not much difference.

Other than price point and HP numbers I dont think too many people will be cross shopping these two. The FRS and BRZ would seem more for people who would be looking at a Genesis or even the cheaper rustang.

That being said I think the #'s at the strip or track will be very similiar btween the SI and the FRS/BRZ and in the respect they will seem like fierce competitors and going after the same market, but the driving experience (especially at the limit) will be VERY different...

just my .02 cents

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by neveronlinefrs

I owned a Civic SI and I would not consider getting another one unless a supercharger or Gears (FD) was on order the first gear is horrible it feels long as hell like your never going to shift. The car does corner well for a FWD car without too much oversteer (with summer tires). I have owned many FWD cars and I have ownd RWD and AWD cars and if you think FWD and RWD feels the same you arent really driving the car they feel completely different and react differently at speed. If your just driving around town and going to meets and shows then yeah theres not much difference.

Other than price point and HP numbers I dont think too many people will be cross shopping these two. The FRS and BRZ would seem more for people who would be looking at a Genesis or even the cheaper rustang.

That being said I think the #'s at the strip or track will be very similiar btween the SI and the FRS/BRZ and in the respect they will seem like fierce competitors and going after the same market, but the driving experience (especially at the limit) will be VERY different...

just my .02 cents

i think if you are talking about the difference between drivetrains you need to discuss your experiences. having owned a couple supras, a miata stock and modified, an ae86 stock and modified, a crx and a mazdaspeed protege among other things, the difference isnt that huge. you need to drive differently but as far as being fun or handling well there is no difference. maybe once you get into the 4 or 5 hundred hp figures there are alarming changes but to be honest the msp and crx were more fun than the ae86 and miata but maybe thats the hp talking. funny to compare cars with 160 and 170 hp to 130 and 110 like its a huge difference but it is what it is

[neveronlinefrs]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i think if you are talking about the difference between drivetrains you need to discuss your experiences. having owned a couple supras, a miata stock and modified, an ae86 stock and modified, a crx and a mazdaspeed protege among other things, the difference isnt that huge. you need to drive differently but as far as being fun or handling well there is no difference. maybe once you get into the 4 or 5 hundred hp figures there are alarming changes but to be honest the msp and crx were more fun than the ae86 and miata but maybe thats the hp talking. funny to compare cars with 160 and 170 hp to 130 and 110 like its a huge difference but it is what it is

I think I was talking more about driving dynamics (mostly in a track or auto cross situation ie driving the car at its limits or close to). when just driving around town and stop light to stop light I agree there is really not much difference. But in an aggressive driving situation my 200hp 99Si or 220hp 2010Si behaved nothing like my 256hp S2000 or like my 400hp EVO X or like my friends 396hp SC'd S2000. They were all very different experiences.

FWD Layout - The 99SI would pull you around the track and during high speed cornering would tend to oversteer and would then start to understeer as the tires heated up. During low speed corners it would oversteer stronger and when the tires were very hot it would understeer bad. Acceleration was good with the exception of TQ steer here and there. It never did anything you didnt really expect it to. The 2010 Si was a lot more neutral then my older Si but I had more fun in the older version the newer model had a very boring 1st gear that just feels wrong for the engine its (much to long) to make the car fun it really needs a final drive or boost imho. It can be driven fast around a track (I dont use 1st gear on tracks so it was a non issue and 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear feel good in it) it did not exhibit some of the understeer issues I had on the older model. One thing I hated about it is the braking when the car would have traction issues during braking the pedal feel would get weird and inconsistant (not from brake fade though).

AWD Layout - The Evo X was by far the fastest around the track and also the most boring the car simply does too much of the driving for you, go into a corner too hot (within reason) and just turn the wheel and stay focused and dont freak out and the car finds a way to get you through it, braking was excellent and the car while being pretty neutral during some corners it tends to react a little bit like a RWD and the rear can actually step out a bit, which I never experienced in the Evo 8s. Biggest downside is the stock clutch is crap and should be replaced upon taking delivery of the car.

RWD Layout - The NA S2000 for me was the most fun the car it was a blast to drive around the track. It was exhilirating and if you pushed it too much it would bite you in the rear! The more you drove it the better of a driver it made you it was predictable with the write tires and though it could have used a little bit more power or a final drive it was by far the most fun car I have driven. The 400HP S2K required a lot more restraint specially during corner exits, get on it too much or too early slide and spin, though after a little while of driving it was fun and on the straights it was a beast. It just felt like too much power for the car (unless youre into Drag racing) maybe would have been better suited for less technical track.

Remember there are tons of different types of drivers and people who prefer all different layouts. Given time and resources to use different suspensions, settings, tires and go fast parts you can get most cars to behave however you want in most situations, Ive seen FWD and AWD cars drift Ive seen RWD and FWD cars Rally and so on... but all the drivetrains being not too much different I disagree (at least in my experiences).

In the end will people cross shop the two cars, I am 100% positive they will... It just doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me but my goals and what I intend to do with the car are probably different then 80-90% of the buyers. I will track it, I will auto X it and I will modify it with function in mind over looks (though i am sure it will look good too...LOL!!!)

I am not a professional driver just an enthusiest and If I were i could probably give much better descriptions, but these are some of my experiences with the different drivetrain layouts - sorry for going of the SI vs FRS/BRZ topic a little

[SUB-FT86]

That was a nice read there.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by neveronlinefrs

I think I was talking more about driving dynamics (mostly in a track or auto cross situation ie driving the car at its limits or close to). when just driving around town and stop light to stop light I agree there is really not much difference. But in an aggressive driving situation my 200hp 99Si or 220hp 2010Si behaved nothing like my 256hp S2000 or like my 400hp EVO X or like my friends 396hp SC'd S2000. They were all very different experiences.

FWD Layout - The 99SI would pull you around the track and during high speed cornering would tend to oversteer and would then start to understeer as the tires heated up. During low speed corners it would oversteer stronger and when the tires were very hot it would understeer bad. Acceleration was good with the exception of TQ steer here and there. It never did anything you didnt really expect it to. The 2010 Si was a lot more neutral then my older Si but I had more fun in the older version the newer model had a very boring 1st gear that just feels wrong for the engine its (much to long) to make the car fun it really needs a final drive or boost imho. It can be driven fast around a track (I dont use 1st gear on tracks so it was a non issue and 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear feel good in it) it did not exhibit some of the understeer issues I had on the older model. One thing I hated about it is the braking when the car would have traction issues during braking the pedal feel would get weird and inconsistant (not from brake fade though).

AWD Layout - The Evo X was by far the fastest around the track and also the most boring the car simply does too much of the driving for you, go into a corner too hot (within reason) and just turn the wheel and stay focused and dont freak out and the car finds a way to get you through it, braking was excellent and the car while being pretty neutral during some corners it tends to react a little bit like a RWD and the rear can actually step out a bit, which I never experienced in the Evo 8s. Biggest downside is the stock clutch is crap and should be replaced upon taking delivery of the car.

RWD Layout - The NA S2000 for me was the most fun the car it was a blast to drive around the track. It was exhilirating and if you pushed it too much it would bite you in the rear! The more you drove it the better of a driver it made you it was predictable with the write tires and though it could have used a little bit more power or a final drive it was by far the most fun car I have driven. The 400HP S2K required a lot more restraint specially during corner exits, get on it too much or too early slide and spin, though after a little while of driving it was fun and on the straights it was a beast. It just felt like too much power for the car (unless youre into Drag racing) maybe would have been better suited for less technical track.

Remember there are tons of different types of drivers and people who prefer all different layouts. Given time and resources to use different suspensions, settings, tires and go fast parts you can get most cars to behave however you want in most situations, Ive seen FWD and AWD cars drift Ive seen RWD and FWD cars Rally and so on... but all the drivetrains being not too much different I disagree (at least in my experiences).

In the end will people cross shop the two cars, I am 100% positive they will... It just doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me but my goals and what I intend to do with the car are probably different then 80-90% of the buyers. I will track it, I will auto X it and I will modify it with function in mind over looks (though i am sure it will look good too...LOL!!!)

I am not a professional driver just an enthusiest and If I were i could probably give much better descriptions, but these are some of my experiences with the different drivetrain layouts - sorry for going of the SI vs FRS/BRZ topic a little

im not going to argue your description of those cars but i dont believe that that is representative of the fwd rwd difference. the drivetrain is the least of the differences in those cars. its hard to compare cars with a 50% increase of power, 15k more in price and one is a sports car while one is a sporty compact

[Dimman]

^ Compare AE86 v AE92(?) FWD Corolla GT-S?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dimman

^ Compare AE86 v AE92(?) FWD Corolla GT-S?

that would probably work. anybody have both of these cars?

[SUB-FT86]

I saw both of these cars at the auto show. The interior quality of the Civic Si from 1-10 is 6 in its class. The BRZ is a 10. The exterior is also a 10 vs the Civic being a 7. This is just my opinion though.

[quik1987]

I don't know who in their right mind will buy a 2012 Civic Si Coupe over the FR-S

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by quik1987

I don't know who in their right mind will buy a 2012 Civic Si Coupe over the FR-S

VTEC vs RWD.

tough choice.......

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

VTEC vs RWD.

tough choice.......

It is not the traditional 8K+ limit anymore. IMHO they took away their great USP with the 6-8k+ RPM VTAKing.

Maybe it is still good fun, but I wouldn't take the current Si over a FRS/BRZ.

[Boogs]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

It is not the traditional 8K+ limit anymore. IMHO they took away their great USP with the 6-8k+ RPM VTAKing.

Maybe it is still good fun, but I wouldn't take the current Si over a FRS/BRZ.

Having driven an 8thgen Si (stock) for my daily commute from the curvy roads of the hill-country to and through the crowded city streets for 3 years, I can say that I can't wait to drive the BRZ instead. Driving a RWD, low CoG, similiar engine out-put performing, beautiful (unlike the 8thgen's ginger step-child-like appearance(imo)) sports car around all those curvy country roads will be joyous. I can't wait to sell the Si and get the BRZ. I'm super psyched for this car.