BRZ/FR-S Vs. Civic SI

[statuskuo]

Also - since the civic is getting refreshed for 2013 - does anyone think they will do a refresh of the Si? (Sorry if this has been discussed already but from my searches I haven't been able to find anything concrete)

[7thgear]

is RWD over FWD worth 5 grand?


the main difference, always, will be what sort of feelings you are after

in a RWD and some AWD cars, you have the feeling of being PUSHED. and tend to find yourself in the "center" of the forces being acted on the vehicle.

in a FWD car, you'll only ever get the feeling of being PULLED, and tend to find yourself simply following your eyes and arms.

if i was to come with a witty one liner, id say that FWD is about figuring out where you want to go and RWD is about getting there


since vehiclde dynamics, at the end of the day, are bout weight and tires, a 2600 lb brick making 200hp of roughly the same dimensions, using the same tires, with sporty suspensions, will perform equally on a dry pavement track.

the difference is how you go about it...

for people who have zero interest in autosports i think RWD cars are a complete waste. I'd go FWD in a second if i didn't want to have a little fun at the track.

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by statuskuo

Also - since the civic is getting refreshed for 2013 - does anyone think they will do a refresh of the Si? (Sorry if this has been discussed already but from my searches I haven't been able to find anything concrete)

They did sweet FA to the previous Si... some new colours, wheels, adding the sedan, but dynamically it was the same car from 2006 to 2011.
Maybe this time they do something? IDK.

[86'd]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

is RWD over FWD worth 5 grand?


the main difference, always, will be what sort of feelings you are after

in a RWD and some AWD cars, you have the feeling of being PUSHED. and tend to find yourself in the "center" of the forces being acted on the vehicle.

in a FWD car, you'll only ever get the feeling of being PULLED, and tend to find yourself simply following your eyes and arms.

if i was to come with a witty one liner, id say that FWD is about figuring out where you want to go and RWD is about getting there


since vehiclde dynamics, at the end of the day, are bout weight and tires, a 2600 lb brick making 200hp of roughly the same dimensions, using the same tires, with sporty suspensions, will perform equally on a dry pavement track.

the difference is how you go about it...

for people who have zero interest in autosports i think RWD cars are a complete waste. I'd go FWD in a second if i didn't want to have a little fun at the track.

I agree but the direct competitor of the Civic SI would be the FRS and not the BRZ, and I think they'll be a lot closer in price than 3 to 5k.

But for me it's not just about RWD, it's about the feeling of being in a sports car. The low seating position and not looking like a grocery getter.

The FRS/BRZ weighs a bit less, will arguably have a better shifter, will be a bit more unique and IMO looks a lot better than the Civic. RWD will be great, if I ever decide to go on a track, and will be fun if I want to hoon on a parking lot on a rainy day.

For argument's sake is it worth 3-5K more than a Civic? Yeah I think so.

That's why, if this car is priced right, it will be as popular as the Civic SI, and you'll see Honda trying to play catch-up.

[Aki]

I don't think performance would be all that different to a Civic Si, considering the drivetrain loss but with a lighter weight. And the difference in money you're paying is for better fun (RWD) and engagement. 7thgear summed it up nicely though--even if their performance was the same, the feel is totally different in a RWD. Sure I can trail brake to get the rear rotate better in FWD, but it just doesn't feel the same as a RWD car swinging around.

Way I see it, the FR-S was never intended to "beat" other cars, but to just be fun. It's why they put Prius tires on it.

Originally Posted by 86'd

The FRS/BRZ weighs a bit less, will arguably have a better shifter

Honda's 6-speed in the Si is known to great (aside from that annoyingly weak syncro), I'm doubtful it'd have a better shifter.

[86'd]

Originally Posted by Aki

I don't think performance would be all that different to a Civic Si, considering the drivetrain loss but with a lighter weight. And the difference in money you're paying is for better fun (RWD) and engagement. 7thgear summed it up nicely though--even if their performance was the same, the feel is totally different in a RWD. Sure I can trail brake to get the rear rotate better in FWD, but it just doesn't feel the same as a RWD car swinging around.

Way I see it, the FR-S was never intended to "beat" other cars, but to just be fun. It's why they put Prius tires on it.



Honda's 6-speed in the Si is known to great (aside from that annoyingly weak syncro), I'm doubtful it'd have a better shifter.

Hence, arguably.

I know Honda makes good shifters but the S2000 was the best shifting car I've ever owned, and I've heard that the Miata, and RX8 are with that group. The FRS/BRZ is said to have most of the same transmission as those cars, and all reports say that shifting feel is great. The Civic, although good, is never mentioned.

The S2000 spoiled me and I have to have a shifter that will be nearly as good as that one, it's that important to me. And that's what turns me off, with cars like the WRX, because of the relatively sloppy shifting.

[koyv90]

Originally Posted by Aki

I don't think performance would be all that different to a Civic Si, considering the drivetrain loss but with a lighter weight. And the difference in money you're paying is for better fun (RWD) and engagement. 7thgear summed it up nicely though--even if their performance was the same, the feel is totally different in a RWD. Sure I can trail brake to get the rear rotate better in FWD, but it just doesn't feel the same as a RWD car swinging around.

Way I see it, the FR-S was never intended to "beat" other cars, but to just be fun. It's why they put Prius tires on it.



Honda's 6-speed in the Si is known to great (aside from that annoyingly weak syncro), I'm doubtful it'd have a better shifter.

Japanese Prius tires, no one mentions this.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Mitch

I'm sorry, what I mean is that there is a flatspot in the torque curve of a stock k20z3 in the 500rpm leading up to the switchover. When people software tuned their otherwise stock engines, they saw the torque curve smooth out almost completely during the transition. The conclusion of which is that Honda purposefully detuned the engine in the few hundred rpm leading up to the switchover to provide the "vtec kick" that people were expecting.

Yes I see what you mean, I checked out some dynos on the off time at lunch. That actually looks really stupid on the graph hahaha. Maybe it was in a lower gear, but the engagement just looks like it took a while. Included a 2ZZ Elise for comparison.

07 Civic Si Dyno




05 Elise Dyno

[chulooz]

Wow. Junk ricer tuning, not appreciated.

[Exage]

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 86'd

Hence, arguably.

I know Honda makes good shifters but the S2000 was the best shifting car I've ever owned, and I've heard that the Miata, and RX8 are with that group. The FRS/BRZ is said to have most of the same transmission as those cars, and all reports say that shifting feel is great. The Civic, although good, is never mentioned.

The S2000 spoiled me and I have to have a shifter that will be nearly as good as that one, it's that important to me. And that's what turns me off, with cars like the WRX, because of the relatively sloppy shifting.

That isnt the miata shifter people praise.



In my experience the difference between fwd and rwd is so hugely blown out of proportion

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by fatoni

In my experience the difference between fwd and rwd is so hugely blown out of proportion

For someone with almost no actual car experience like me, there is so much RWD hype that I can't help but want RWD :P If it means paying more, I'm sure I'll convince myself that it's better even if I can't tell the difference

[7thgear]

again, it depends on the setup, it depends on the driving style, it depends on what you will ultimately do with the car

it ALSO depends on how far you are willing to go in modifying your car

a FWD car, for instance, could be setup to do tight auto-cross or gymkhana really well.

example:

[u2b]VJrEJb0HaeY[/u2b]


Serialk11r, for you i would not worry which car you start off from, but i will recommend you try them all at some point at a race track

If you start showing up to your local autorcross events, you'll make friends. If you're sociable enough and make waves, you'll not only get rides in cars but some may even allow you to co-drive an event.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

again, it depends on the setup, it depends on the driving style, it depends on what you will ultimately do with the car

it ALSO depends on how far you are willing to go in modifying your car

a FWD car, for instance, could be setup to do tight auto-cross or gymkhana really well.

example:

[u2b]VJrEJb0HaeY[/u2b]


Serialk11r, for you i would not worry which car you start off from, but i will recommend you try them all at some point at a race track

If you start showing up to your local autorcross events, you'll make friends. If you're sociable enough and make waves, you'll not only get rides in cars but some may even allow you to co-drive an event.

many times people recommend using a fwd platform to start driving because it enforced/rewards proper driving lines and smooth inputs. people tend to think that fwd understeer and rwd oversteer but that is really only when you are on the throttle. handling characteristics of a chassis are independent of the drive wheels.