BRZ/FR-S Vs. Civic SI

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I don't think there's a such thing as a "normal" NA...VTEC is just a particular variable valve actuation system.
Anyways, the Civic is probably a bit stronger below 3000rpm because of VTEC, the FA20 has pretty crappy low end torque because it only has cam phasing, but the Civic weighs more and has FWD.

I wouldn't say Vtec is the only reason it's stronger if we are talking about the K24 in the 2012 model?

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Based on the nearly 200lb weight difference between the cars, and the fact that the BRZ/FR-S is RWD and will actually put the power down in 1st gear, I'd say no contest. BRZ/FR-S will probably be marginally faster in every respect except maybe top-gear acceleration. It will certainly be faster on a track, especially if you put the same tires on both cars.

On a prepared drag-strip, they'll likely be very close, but in real world conditions, where traction is more limited and road conditions aren't perfect, the RWD layout is going to give a massive advantage to the BRZ/FR-S off the line. I've got a high-powered FWD car....launching it is a huge pain in the ass.

The difference is really 100 lbs since the FR-S is closer to 2,760 lbs. And FWD has less drivetrain losses.

[chulooz]

Stopped reading at " (vtec vs NA)" LOL

Traction is by far the biggest difference in these layouts and effects the engines needs.

[SUB-FT86]

I honestly think the closest competitor to the FRS on the market is the dearly departed RX8 and the Si is a close second. If Mazda didn't offer that hideous back door which made the car look longer it would've been a bit closer to the weight of the FRS by at least 100 lbs in base configuration. It would've been more smaller and agile looking with a even better P2W ratio that would've rivaled a S2000 much better with two extra back seats.

[chulooz]

Agreed with the rx8 in first place, but i think the miata would be the second. RWD is critical.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by chulooz

Agreed with the rx8 in first place, but i think the miata would be the second. RWD is critical.

I know what you mean but a lot of people is going to say roadster vs coupe, and 2 seater vs 4 seater. Back in the days wasn't it the AE86 vs a Civic or Integra from Honda?

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by Exage

It's actually better to have the switch point lower, the consequence is less kick. Power is accessible towards the end of the midrange. So I respect your opinion Mitch that it's detuned (with you owning a 8th Gen Si), however I believe it's just less abrupt then the past non cam-phasing Honda engines (B series).

I don't land on my high cam even with redline shifts because it's set [stock] at a silly 6700rpm. The tuners that use the Apexi-PFC always decrease it to 5800-6200rpm on this engine, trading the "kick" for better performance and land on upshift. It gives a hell of jolt and noise in 1st and 2nd stock though.

________________

And that's all the off topic from me today...

I'm sorry, what I mean is that there is a flatspot in the torque curve of a stock k20z3 in the 500rpm leading up to the switchover. When people software tuned their otherwise stock engines, they saw the torque curve smooth out almost completely during the transition. The conclusion of which is that Honda purposefully detuned the engine in the few hundred rpm leading up to the switchover to provide the "vtec kick" that people were expecting.

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

while best motoring is probably the.. best motoring video series out there, i would take their "conclusions" with a bag servering of salt.

Oh sure they're just a bunch of guys hooning around for kicks. It is definitely entertainment value 1st, 2nd, 3rd. I wouldn't put any stock into their results either.

[statuskuo]

So now here's my question (I know this is a rough comparison in terms of differences in vehicles):

Say you can get a Civic Si for 23k out the door vs. BR-Z 28k out the door

Obivously there will be some trim differences but seeing as the Si is older and the BR-Z is newer and going for MSRP - lets say they are both fully decked out - is the BR-Z worth the X amount over the Si? (anywhere from 3-5k more?)

[Capt Canuck]

^That is the question for every last comparison about anything ever.
Is the BRZ 'worth it' compared to what you or me currently drive or something else?
If you can pro/con it in favour of the BRZ for what you want out of the car, then the answer is yes. It is a subjective exercise which will be different for everyone of us.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I wouldn't say Vtec is the only reason it's stronger if we are talking about the K24 in the 2012 model?

It would be the main reason for the K20 Civics, the K24 on the other hand is much more low end torque oriented which would be the main reason.

[statuskuo]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

^That is the question for every last comparison about anything ever.
Is the BRZ 'worth it' compared to what you or me currently drive or something else?
If you can pro/con it in favour of the BRZ for what you want out of the car, then the answer is yes. It is a subjective exercise which will be different for everyone of us.

Yes! I agree - but I was just looking for some of your opinions - since opinions are subjective anyways. Like for you as an example - would you say its worth a 5k difference? (and I'm not looking to plug holes in anyones 'arguements' or reasonings - im just looking for another opinion)

Thanks!

[Capt Canuck]

^Objectively no.
Subjectively yes. I've owned two 8th Gen Honda Civics and I am not really that keen to own another one.

I haven't driven the new Si, but as it has lost some of its VTAK-ness and in that a lot of its inherent charm, I would take an FRS or BRZ at - some dollars more - instead.

[statuskuo]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

^Objectively no.
Subjectively yes. I've owned two 8th Gen Honda Civics and I am not really that keen to own another one.

I haven't driven the new Si, but as it has lost some of its VTAK-ness and in that a lot of its inherent charm, I would take an FRS or BRZ at - some dollars more - instead.

Thanks for that! I've been really keen on the car (have the BR-Z preordered via refundable deposit w/ a group buy) and I understand how everyone is i love with it. But I'm just not sure it justifies the price tag thats on it....then again a car is a car - we're already talking about 20k - whats another 3-5k right? I'm going crazy now....