SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[TRev]

Originally Posted by Rexpelagi

I can understand the sentiment. I'm sure many of you know (but others may not), that you can always submit input to the SCCA advisory committees, which can then submit potential car class changes for member comment through the Fastrack releases. Interacting with some of SAC, I know they do their best to foresee all possible outcomes as rules change. Even still, with sweeping rule changes like we just underwent, things may not be as balanced as everyone would like in the first year.

Thanks for some of the input on these cars Tom!

I did submit the Porsche clarification and the only reason I mentioned it here is because the 968 came up ironically during the same time frame.

The initial sentiment came from conversations with Rick about the PAX and that is when the 370z came up initially. Rick sees A LOT of results so I have to believe he is basing that off some pretty good data. Seeing some of the various test results seemed to add fuel to the fire so to speak. Some of those results would seem to have decent weight to them based on who was driving and what was being driven.

R comp results don't cross clearly but the top cars in CS where the 370z, MSR, and Z0K. The 370z definitely should lose some time due to grip so I understand the reason why the SEB classed it the way they did.

I realize the SEB has a HUGE job and appreciate the work they do voluntarily. I also appreciate the information from Tom as I learned some stuff about cars as well as how the organization works.

I'll shut up and wait to see how things shake out

[ABQautoxer]

While I can appreciate educating yourself on competitive cars, at the same time nothing is changing in the next few months guaranteed. We'd need to see multiple results before we could even pretend to start to see a picture. I, as an individual would take a ludicrous margin of victory by known drivers multiple times to believe the picture some seem to believe. We'll see soon enough but regional results are just that.

Rick does an incredible job but he's guessed just like everyone else involved.

[Kido1986]

Eh, Rick did something beyond 'Guess' this time...

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by TrqlessWonder

It's solo, there will always be people pissed off about this stuff. Before, during, and after the fact, almost completely regardless of which way it goes. If it's any comfort, I think the 370z is going to have a tougher go of it on 200TW than on the hoosiers. Heavier, perhaps more power than is usable/easy to put down, and an iffy viscous diff.

I'm watching a couple 370Z's being developed first hand in my region, and one driven by a National level driver. The 370Z puts the power down just fine and can fit a huge amount of rubber compared to us. Unless the course is designed with a very tight line as being the fastest, it seems the Twins need to be driven near perfect to be within half a second. It's what we have seen so far and with some spot testing with Brian Peters behind the wheel in after-competition x runs.

It may be a heavy pig, but it has enough power to pull itself out of trouble and make up huge chunks of time on any available fast sections.

[Biggins]

Say the 370z dominates CS the first few national events, would there be any precedent to move their class mid-season?

I don't know how different a 'Nismo' 370z is, but we had one running in DC last year a few times. The DC site is hilly with many elevation changes (you hold the e-brake at the ProSolo tree), but any time we had multiple uphill acceleration areas on our courses, it would walk us. Events without the uphill acceleration zones, the FRS/BRZ contingent was fine. I'm still not discounting an RX-8 to be tough.

[edj]

Originally Posted by Biggins

Say the 370z dominates CS the first few national events, would there be any precedent to move their class mid-season?

I talked with an SEB member about moving cars in Street mid-year and
he stated that it was highly unlikely anything will be done until after
Nationals.

So I guess we are stuck behind the Z cars until at least 2015.

[G_Ride]

Originally Posted by ABQautoxer

Out of curiosity and having driven many of them as PCA guy, which one exactly is giving you trouble in CS?

The car itself was a 1993 968 with the M030 package. At the last event has was incredibly faster than everyone else. Everyone was surprised that this car is a CS car and unsure if it was legal before talking to the owner since that 948 was very flat in the turns. So far it seems like that 968 is legal, but my co-driver believes it may be running illegal front wheels. According to my co-driver the 968 with the M030 package should be running 17/18x7.5 +65 (+/- 6) in the front, but is more than likely running 18x7.5 +50 in the front since the wheels are from the 2003-2005 Boxter S.

[ABQautoxer]

That wheel would help that particular car quite a bit. However those cars were ruled by the RX8 as I mentioned despite some quality efforts. Time will tell.

[G_Ride]

Originally Posted by ABQautoxer

That wheel would help that particular car quite a bit. However those cars were ruled by the RX8 as I mentioned despite some quality efforts. Time will tell.

It could just be course dependent, at least locally. Not to mention who knows how things will change with only street tires.

[jdrxb9]

Regarding the 968 M030 - I've run against one several times at Steel Cities. The driver doesn't do a lot of 'national' events, but has been around a long time, generally has the 968 well-prepped and is generally near the top of local pax results.

Last year he ran on Hoosiers while I was on ZII's. He was invariably quicker, specifically by 3.6%, 1.7%, 4.6% and 3.9% at the events we both ran. When he ran against a certain SEB member in an RX-8, he also beat him by at least 2.5% at 5 of 6 events. Now, we didn't always run the same heat, the steel cities lot can often favor a torquey car, insert other caveats here, etc, but if I was interested in running an old Porsche for auto-x, a 968 M030 would be high on my list.

[jdrxb9]

was double post - revised edit below

Note that I'm not complaining about the classing of the 968 or the twin or the RX-8 or even the 370Z (yet). My hat is off to all our board volunteers and I think they do a great job in a mostly thankless position.

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by Biggins

Say the 370z dominates CS the first few national events, would there be any precedent to move their class mid-season?

Moving a class mid-season is something I've not heard of happening. Announcing a move partway through the season that is effective at the start of the following season, sure, but not knee-capping a car in the middle. That's a level or rules instability that I think would be poorly tolerated by the membership.

FWIW, I think you'll need more than just 370z data, too. If you can't get the car you want tossed, then there is the possibility of getting your car re-classed as your other option. But as we know, the ES idea got rejected. No matter what, you'll need a more complete data set if you want to convince the SAC to act.

The following may not even be enough, but it would be better than simply saying the 370 is dominating. What would help your argument a lot, would be to get a national (preferably alien) level driver to do a full prep, or co-drive a full-prep, and campaign it for the season. See, while I'm pretty sure we have seen and are seeing the datsun (and rx-8) being run at its potential, I don't really know that the SAC thinks they're seeing that with the twins yet. A start, but still not good enough for someone like me (not in any position of authority) was putting Peters in the car mentioned earlier. You need that level of driver publicly and officially throwing the kitchen sink at it, or darn close to it, and running it for the year, against those same drivers in the other cars, at the same places, at the same times. It would be better if you had multiple instances of that going on. Otherwise, it's too easy to dismiss the anecdotal evidence as hearsay.

Right now, though, the data point is he got within a half second, in an unfamiliar car, during unrecorded fun runs. Even if we regard that as meaningful data, that doesn't sound to me like the very steep climb it's being made out to be.

[ABQautoxer]

Mike you aren't too far off my personal thinking, but I'm one of 7 on the SAC and the SEB can and has done their own thing at times anyway.

Also, keep in mind we have NOT seen the RX8 run at its potential in years IMO. 370z needs power courses, the twins need courses to stay out of the torque dip and rev limiter, and the RX8 is in the middle of both of those cars IMO. So I expect to see a lot of course/driver dependency play out. I happen to have the car that won nats last year local to me and our area favors power courses so it's not like myself and others involved in the decision making process are blind despite the hints previously we aren't watching, concerned, or careful.

[DylanFRS]

As much as I want my car to be competitive, it bothers me when people give the notion that if a car isn't winning, it should be moved to an easier class.