Winter Driving?

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by FR Sports

I tried double clutch with throttle already upshifting and still had difficulty going into 2nd. I guess it cannot be helped as the outside temperature the past few weeks was like -30C with wind chill. I'll try skipping 2nd or starting in 2nd the next time to see if it helps. Thanks for the suggestions.

That's because double clutching an upshift doesn't work, can't work and won't work.

The first couple of shifts from 1 to 2 with a very cold manual transmission on this car will be baulky. Use a firm motion out of first and then into second, and don't worry, it won't hurt the gearbox as long as the clutch is fully depressed.

Cold temperatures can make shifting more difficult depending on synchronizer design, lubricant specification and mileage on the gearbox. Persevere and all will come good.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by wparsons

No, no, no. Read what I said. When the gearbox oil is really cold if you're shifting slow the input shaft will slow down faster (or fully stop) than the shift so double clutching can actually help. When it's really cold it doesn't take much time at all for the input shaft to stop spinning with the clutch in.

You're not slowing down the input shaft, you're speeding it back up after it slowed down too fast during the first part of the shift.

Like I said originally, it's not something you would need to do often, but in certain situations it can be handy.

Transmission is always turning at road speed. Inertia of the clutch and input shaft spinning in neutral is insignificant compared to the inertia of the entire assembly of gear clusters. That's why you don't need to double clutch the shift from neutral into any gear while stationary, it will always go in because any upshift from neutral only needs to match the speed of the input shaft. Conversely, just about any shift into any gear from neutral when rolling is a downshift and double clutching can help the synchronizers if done accurately.

What you describe, where the shift takes so long it is in effect a downshift, isn't an upshift of any description. Whether you're shifting up or down depends on the road speed relative to the desired gear ratio engine rpm, not which gear you were in when you selected neutral. Only road speed matters in a constant mesh transmission.


These transmissions are baulky when cold when shifting from first to second. This disappears within a few miles of driving. I expect this will disappear completely well within 20,000 km but some transmissions can take longer to fully bed in the synchros. If this fault doesn't disappear I expect Aisin will issue revised lubricant specification for cold climates. I know Mazda tried this on their transverse gearbox, blending in some automatic transmission fluid for winter. However, they decided it made shift quality unacceptable when hot so went back to the lubricant originally specified. In line manual gearbox lubricants are tricky to make because of the friction requirements of synchronizers.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Transmission is always turning at road speed. Inertia of the clutch and input shaft spinning in neutral is insignificant compared to the inertia of the entire assembly of gear clusters.

You think the input shaft is spinning at road speed if you have the clutch in and the gearbox is in neutral? That's cute.

I'm at 47k km's, and mine is still notchy into 2nd when cold.

[PMPB]

Originally Posted by wparsons

You think the input shaft is spinning at road speed if you have the clutch in and the gearbox is in neutral? That's cute.

I'm at 47k km's, and mine is still notchy into 2nd when cold.

Whoa whoa whoa guys.... let's not jump down eachothers throats. Wparsons, he wasn't saying the input shaft is always spinning.

What suberman was saying is that, slotting into second from first doesn't require a shift to neutral because the dogs and synchros on the 1-2 shaft should already be spinning faster that required and only need to slow down (either naturally, or with slight pressure applied to the synchro) to slot in.

Wparson, I understand what you mean, your impression is that between the time you disengage first, the 1-2 shaft and assembly has slowed down to the point where slotting into second would require the synchros to INCREASE the speed of the shaft.... it's an interesting thought, honestly. With that said, I think it's incredibly unlikely, the clutch assembly and input shaft aren't THAT light... Additionally, in my experience shifting very quickly from first to second is much worse in terms of the crunchyness, than applying a slight bit of pressure and giving everything more time. I think the the cold temperature of the transmission fluid (and therefore higher viscosity) means that more time is required for the fluid to be displaced from between the synchros and the teeth and dogs are more likely to make mechanical contact while they still have different rotating speeds.

If the shafts were slowing down SOOOO much (to a stop like wparsons suggests), than the smaller ratio gap between 2 and 3, and the fact that shifting from 2->3 takes longer (physically), would mean that the 2->3 shift would be even MORE baulky.

[Gords_zenith]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Old fashioned thinking.

Sequential shifting wears out synchronizers.

Double clutching wears out master cylinders and release bearings. Done incorrectly, say while upshifting or incorrectly during downshifting, double clutching also wears out synchronizers.

I've been driving cars with manual transmissions for over 40 years, including some with worn out boxes and Alfa Romeos which require double clutching.

I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're doing and the fact that the shift quality on your car still hadn't improved may be the result.

Talk to me again when you've put 100,000 miles on the same manual transmission, and more than once.

Yup, I have 220k on my truck tranny and 40k on the car currently. The car is only notchy when cold and YES double clutching for the first few 1-2's makes a HUGE difference! And yes I would rather replace a master/slave cylinder vs syncros! So I will continue to double clutch and save the wear from the syncros. But do whatever makes you sleep at night though.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by Gords_zenith

I've been driving manual for 15 years with several vehicles that were/are manual, I think I know what I'm doing but thanks.

Originally Posted by Suberman

I've been driving cars with manual transmissions for over 40 years, including some with worn out boxes and Alfa Romeos which require double clutching.

I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're doing and the fact that the shift quality on your car still hadn't improved may be the result.

Talk to me again when you've put 100,000 miles on the same manual transmission, and more than once.

Gotta say I saw this coming...again. Comparing e-peens is fun!

And @Suberman, see that little " button next to the quote button? Means that if you have multiple posts you want to quote and reply to, that you click it, move on to the next post, click it again, until you have all the posts you want to reply to, then you go down to the end of the page and click "reply." Now you know how to multi-quote. You're welcome.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by wparsons

You think the input shaft is spinning at road speed if you have the clutch in and the gearbox is in neutral? That's cute.

I'm at 47k km's, and mine is still notchy into 2nd when cold.

No I don't nor did I say that.

What's important is the speed difference between the two shafts.

The input shaft is the only shaft that can turn at other than road speed. The rest of the gears are all always turning at road speed.

Therefore, anyone who thinks speeding up the input shaft helps to shift up a gear ratio is just plain wrong. The entire gearbox is turning at first gear road speed until you disengage first during the shift, it then slows down including the input shaft. There is never a reason you need to speed up the input shaft unless your shift is so slow as to qualify as a downshift.

Hope that's clear enough for everyone.

My take on this box is it benefits from mileage and gets better with age. Triple cone synchronizers are very durable, very smooth, allow for very quick shifting but take longer to bed in. The bronze friction surfaces absorb transmission oil over time and become more effective as they age.

My transmission always shifts smoothly and quickly but baulks a bit on the first shift of a cold morning, as in fact it is designed to do. Baulk rings protect the dogs from clash wear.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

Gotta say I saw this coming...again. Comparing e-peens is fun!

And @Suberman, see that little " button next to the quote button? Means that if you have multiple posts you want to quote and reply to, that you click it, move on to the next post, click it again, until you have all the posts you want to reply to, then you go down to the end of the page and click "reply." Now you know how to multi-quote. You're welcome.

I prefer the personal approach if length, diameter or stiffness are to be effectively compared. No confusion about who's talking to whom.

No offence though.

[Suberman]

This car has a short shifter. You're going to feel the synchros baulk if they do. Don't confuse the baulk effect with dog clash, they're different.

[Hardy]

Aside from the clunky 1-2 shifts in the cold, I also found you can stall it in neutral when it's colder than -30! A couple times over the holidays when I was home in Thunder Bay this happened: -35, clutch in, neutral, start car, let clutch out, car stall from the drag of jello in the tranny! I learned quick to feather the clutch out slowly, and let her warm up for 20 mins before going anywhere. Thankfully she won't see those temps again this winter. On the bright side, other than cranking a little slower than normal, she fired up quick every time, and no block heater.

[Kazuya]

-35 with windchill this morning while leaving the gfs house.

Things I've noticed about the car with a 2m warm up

-when I hit the brakes, it feels like a 2s delay
-I fight the car to shift
-pedals feel frozen and stiff
-I usually use a spare key to warm car, lock it and come back later with my real one to get in, the ducking keyhole either sucks or it was frozen, almost broke my key fob with the key turning in the cold for 5m.

Other than these negatives, I love deliverying and going sideways in public.

[congee]

So has anyone tried washing their car yet? I usually go to a coin op but that's not the best idea with the weather so cold. Are those touchless ones at the gas stations okay for this weather? My car is in need of a wash loll

[wparsons]

Touchless ones are fine, just be sure to get the under body spray to get rid of some salt. You'll want to wait for a warmer day so the windows/doors don't freeze to the body though.

[brzr]

Originally Posted by congee

So has anyone tried washing their car yet? I usually go to a coin op but that's not the best idea with the weather so cold. Are those touchless ones at the gas stations okay for this weather? My car is in need of a wash loll

i haven't washed my car in months.....the white is not so white any more

CAN NOT wait for some warmer weather, it's too cold for any kind of wash